NBA: Brawl caught on tape-What would you do?

[OC Kid]

from what I heard yesterday on a radio sports news channel, The athletes hit the wrong guy. They have ID'd the guy who threw the beer cup from a video and are looking for him.

If I were there I would be in defense mode. mainly blocking trying to protect my family.
Then call my lawyer. Why???? Because these yahoos are professional athletes. They think they can get away with just about anything andin recent years they have.

They are not above the law. They can not go and punch people out because someone threw a beer cup at them.
They can defend themselves if assaulted but I dont thik fans throwing a beer cup is consider a physical assault which would demand to physically punch people out. Especially fans who pay the bills.
They have to do what all citizens do, call the police and press charges.

To me its no different then a bar brawl or a road rage incident.

 

[MJS]

If I were there I would be in defense mode. mainly blocking trying to protect my family.

But you know what the sad thing is? We shouldn't have to worry about defending our family, because we should be able to go out to a game, for dinner, a concert, etc. without having to worry about some jerk starting something with either me, my family or the person we're there to see!

In addition, its funny how some people can't go anywhere without getting drunk! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't go to a show and have a beer, but when you gotta get that drunk...well, theres a serious problem IMO. Maybe they should ban beer!

Mike

 

[Karazenpo]

What is a streetfighter? ALL the real fights I have seen have resembled this NBA video. Which is beginning to lead me to the conclusion that most people who get in fights in real life look just like this.


I say: Ain't this the truth!

 

[Karazenpo]

A "streetfighter", "Bar Brawler", "Ruffian" they all have the same MO. They ambush someone with a sucker punch (haymaker) that knocks them out then proceed to stomp the living >>>> out of them. I just use the term "street fighter" as someone who has quite a bit of fighting experience but no formal training like MA, boxing, wrestling, what have you.

I have been in many fights as well and most are flail fests. I have also seen a local fighter who is a bit of a weekend bar brawler who is tough as nails and has a wicked right hook (Haymaker) clean house with it until I rear choked him to the ground.

I agree it is how you train, not the amount of material you know. It is why a trained boxer is a force to be reckoned with as well as an experienced street fighter.

I was not comparing the flailing to a streetfighter, I was saying this is why a streetfighter excels in a bar brawl for example. BECAUSE most everyone will be flailing, he knows it, counts on it and delivers effective strikes (haymaker) to effective targets (jaw hinge, temple) for knockout shots and then proceeds to pummel the victim. You did not see this on the video. You saw many, many strikes that were thrown hard with anger connect and do nothing. Why? Because the intent wasn't there, the target was wrong for the weapon, booze, adrenaline etc...

It boils down to basics - powerfull strikes that are damaging targets that shut down the body. Otherwise you get flail fests.

This is why I dont by into the endless techniques of some kenpo systems, the many requirements for belt levels, the endless drills and sets. That is a different beast however. Blah

I say: This, along with Dave's post is exactly what I was looking for but I wanted someone else to say it. Why? I've been outspoken for many years on this issue on several forums and elsewhere. I see all these kenpo/kempo people putting so much stock into all these techniques, for every possible situation you can get into, then be so technical about how each one HAS to be done a certain way and all the time I'm shaking my head saying: It's never going to happen like that in a real fight, no matter who you are or what style you're training in, unless of course you're fighting some shmuck who's essentially acting like an uke for you and not a real threat anyway." You could probably do a kata on him and win. Against an aggressive opponent who has heart or just don't give a damn, forget it. Raw basics is what you are going to draw upon and let us not forget fighting attitude or "heart". Too many martial artists get too caught up in 'dojo self defense', demos on ukes who are essentially playing the role of stuntmen. Chuck Norris once said something to the effect that he looks so good because of his stuntmen, they either can make him or break him. Notice, he uses the same stunt crew in his movies and television series, ever notice the familiar faces all the time with the villians? Martial artists who are in positions to utilize their skills in reality see this more readily than those who do not and sometimes these practitioners fall into a false sense of security. Again, if I said it once, I said it 100 times, fighting is so simple so why complicate it? Now, with the advent of 'caught on tape' assaults and brawls, as they say, 'a picture is worth a thousand words'! One cannot argue with reality. Like Dave said:

What is a streetfighter? ALL the real fights I have seen have resembled this NBA video. Which is beginning to lead me to the conclusion that most people who get in fights in real life look just like this. Respectfully, Professor Joe

PS: Guarranteed, if we could have seen the late legendary Professor William K.S. Chow in a real fight it wouldn't have been pretty or flashy but basic and deadly!

 

[James Kovacich]

I say: This, along with Dave's post is exactly what I was looking for but I wanted someone else to say it. Why? I've been outspoken for many years on this issue on several forums and elsewhere. I see all these kenpo/kempo people putting so much stock into all these techniques, for every possible situation you can get into, then be so technical about how each one HAS to be done a certain way and all the time I'm shaking my head saying: It's never going to happen like that in a real fight, no matter who you are or what style you're training in, unless of course you're fighting some shmuck who's essentially acting like an uke for you and not a real threat anyway." You could probably do a kata on him and win. Against an aggressive opponent who has heart or just don't give a damn, forget it. Raw basics is what you are going to draw upon and let us not forget fighting attitude or "heart". Too many martial artists get too caught up in 'dojo self defense', demos on ukes who are essentially playing the role of stuntmen. Chuck Norris once said something to the effect that he looks so good because of his stuntmen, they either can make him or break him. Notice, he uses the same stunt crew in his movies and television series, ever notice the familiar faces all the time with the villians? Martial artists who are in positions to utilize their skills in reality see this more readily than those who do not and sometimes these practitioners fall into a false sense of security. Again, if I said it once, I said it 100 times, fighting is so simple so why complicate it? Now, with the advent of 'caught on tape' assaults and brawls, as they say, 'a picture is worth a thousand words'! One cannot argue with reality. Like Dave said:

What is a streetfighter? ALL the real fights I have seen have resembled this NBA video. Which is beginning to lead me to the conclusion that most people who get in fights in real life look just like this. Respectfully, Professor Joe

PS: Guarranteed, if we could have seen the late legendary Professor William K.S. Chow in a real fight it wouldn't have been pretty or flashy but basic and deadly!

What you say in terms of the "ultimate reality of combat" is the goal of all Jun Fan Arts and their off shoots. Heres "my quote" from my homepage which sums it up from a modern perspective.

The "way and truth" is our foundation. How we practice is the "way" that we will react and the tools that work for us is our "truth." The "way" plus "truth" equals our freedom. Good journeys on your path to freedom.

 

[loki09789]

PS: Guarranteed, if we could have seen the late legendary Professor William K.S. Chow in a real fight it wouldn't have been pretty or flashy but basic and deadly!

Some training philosophies hinge on the idea that you will do under pressure the thing that you have trained:

1. Most recently
2. Most intensely
3. Most consistently.

Given a black belt or higher has been consistently been practicing and applying white belt material in all three ways, chances are the thing that you will fall back on is white belt level intricacy - but with a black belt level of form, power, focus and speed in the deliver....

KISS is a good foundation to focus on.

 

[Karazenpo]

Yes, so far, I think we're all on the same page!

 

[Cruentus]

I've been getting a rare take on this incident, considering that I live about 5 min. from the Palace where this occurred, I have acquaintences and friends of friends who were present, some actually right there in the fight breaking it up (Rick Mahorn[sp], an aquaintence and former piston can be seen in a black suit helping to break it up), and I hang out at a local Fridays in walking distance from my residence in Auburn Hills that happeneds to be the same Fridays that a lot of the players hang at (in fact, Wallace was in last week). I was there with Rich Parsons at this same Fridays Monday night.

Anyways, I have observed some interesting things about this incident that I'd like to share:

#1. The "thug mentality" and "disgruntled fan" mentality is always very interesting to observe. The thug mentality was wonderfully demonstrated by Ron Artest who runs into the stands attacking the WRONG GUY; the guy he attacked wasn't even the guy who threw the damn soda. The disgruntled fan mentality was demonstrated by the guy in the blue jersey who actually threw the soda at Artest, and then futilly attempted to fight him, Jackson, and O'neal after they jumped into the stands.

#2. It was also interesting, as it always is when observing any riot, the "mob-mentality" that occurs. People behaving in ways that they'd never normally behave.

So...what does one do if caught in a situation like this...as I believe that was the question here. Well, that depends on what perspective your coming from, so let's cover some possibilities:

#1. DON'T BE A JACKASS. Don't have a thug mentality like Artest, where if you feel like you were wronged or disrespected you come out swinging with no thought as to the consequences to your actions. Don't be the disgruntled fan guy who ruins everyones time around them by being an obnoxious jerk, and who would do something like throw a soda on a player, or on anyone for that matter. And, if your caught in a riot, don't be a part of the mob. Stop, take a deep breath, and THINK about what the hell you are doing.

Now that we covered that, let's cover some options as to who YOU might be in the situation, starting from the most likely...

#2. Someone in the stands who isn't near the incident: Most likely you'll be this person. Sure, your going to want to see what's going on from accross the stands, that's natural. But, stay in your spot unless there is danger where you are sitting. If the situation starts to go from bad to worse, and you sense a riot risk, quietly and courtiously leave the area. Go to your car with whomever your with, and go home. When you are exiting, be courtious to everyone, even if they aren't being that way to you. When people see violence, especially disgruntled fan types and those with the mob-mentality, then they often get "pumped" and want to fight as well. Don't give them a reason to fight you. Be especially careful in fringe area's like hallways and such, be careful in the parking lot where people think that they are away from the law somehow when they are outside, and be careful when you are driving. Don't turn into the aggressive driver in this situation, because chances are you'll piss someone off while your trapped in the parking lot with them.

#3. Same as #2, except this time you're with your wife and one or more child:
The rules change when children are involved a bit. Everything in #2 applies, but you need to even be more cautious in trying to sense when a riot may break out, and leaving before-hand, for the sake of your family. Now, I don't know if this is entirely "correct" but the following seems to make good sense. First off, let the woman take point, or lead. Now, when I am walking with my wife I usually take point, and she walks behind with her hand on by belt, shirt, or I put my left hand behind me for her to hold (less preferable). However, we don't have kids (remember, the rules change with kids). The main reason you let the woman take point is because you can put the kids in the middle and keep an eye on your family as well as your surroundings. Usually when the guy takes point with kids in a riot situation, he tends to unintentionally walk too fast for the wife and children to keep up, which is no good for a number of reasons. By putting the woman in front, she sets the pace, and you (male) can watch them. Another benefit to having the mother in front is that if she accidently runs into someone or has to be a bit assertive when navigating through a crowd, a "pumped up" male is a lot less likely to try to start a fight with her. Now, in terms of crowd navigation; the best crowd navigators are security and LEO crowd control, and Mothers of more then 2 years. It's true. My wife sucks at crowd navigation, but I'll bet that if we have kids she'll be better at it then me in a couple of years. Why? Years of practice walking through crowded wal-marts, stores, malls, and schools with wandering children, that's why. Just one year of periodically having to run through a bunch of people to grab your wandering 3 year old will do the trick. So unless you navigate crowds for a living, chances are Mom is a better crowd navigator then Dad anyways, or at least compitent enough to take point. Now, if something DOES happened, lets say a fight breaks out in front of her, or someone actually trys to assault her. Her motherly instincts will/should kick in, and she will step back with her arms behind to protect her children. When this occurs, you (the male) immediately take point and address the problem, remembering your goal of getting out of there and not being macho. Also, last thing, if one child needs to be carried, then dad carries. If two need to be carried, then I am sorry, but you shouldn't be at the game. Having both the wife and the husband being self-defense oriented will help tremendously in a circumstance like this.

Now, milage and personally circumstances may vary here, so take this as general advise that you can apply to your situation as needed. I won't address the family circumstance again in this post, figuring that as a rule, your goal is to get our family to safety if caught in any of the below situations.

Also, this was a little gender-centric being that I am a male, but women, please don't take this as me being sexist. Mothers have just as much or often more responsability in keeping their family safe as the male. Taking point, and other things, are very important, and not to be taken lightly.

#4. Let's say your closer to the incident then #2, but your not close enough to be of any help in breaking up the situation. Then, MOVE away from the fight and steer clear of security.

#5. Let's say your close enough to help the innocent guy who didn't throw the soda that Artest was beating on. Don't be one of those cowards who just stands by and watches someone innocent get pounded on. Step in and attempt to break it up. The calmer and more soothing you are, the better this will go over. Make sure that you are aware, and when the real security arrives, you know when to step out of the way. Remember as a rule here; you don't help out unless those being paid to help out aren't available. Now, if Artest or someone like him does try to swing on you while your trying to break it up, take him out. Period. Don't let some million dollar thug rap artist wanna-be ****wad hurt YOU. Take him out.

#6. Let's say you ARE the innocent guy sitting there that Artest attacked. First of all, don't stand there like a dolt in shock and awe like that guy did. You should see this coming from a mile away. Try to get out of there ahead of time, but if he gets on top of you and attacks, TAKE HIM OUT HARD, and in the worst way. Again, don't let some million dollar rap artist wanna-be ****wad hurt you. If I were that guy, Artest might have to retire completely. Now, when it does get broken up, however, don't try to continue fighting. Be calm, and know when the threat has been diminished.

#7. Let's say your close enough to hold back the guy who threw the soda in the first place. Yes, hold him back until security arrives. If he try's to hurt you, respond accordingly as described above.

#8. Your trapped in a violent mob: If your not being a jackass, then most likely, the violent mob is not focused on YOU. So, DO NOT start swinging or punching your way out of the mob. This may sound like a good plan, but it is not. A mob is very chaotic, but it does follow certian trends. Finding a common enemy is one of them. A mob that is violent is looking for a common enemy to be violent towards. If you start swinging, there is a very good chance that you will become that common enemy. You will find yourself having to fight 10, 15, 50 people, and it is likely that you will lose this battle, and be stomped to the ground. So it is best to be as calm and inconspicuose as you can, and try to parry and swim your way through the crowd. Be like water. If you have to hurt someone, do it suttily(sp?), and remember that you trying to get away, not be macho and fight people.

Side note: I noticed some clips from systema that seemed to have very good crowd fighting tactics, maybe worth taking a look at.

So....

that's some; some of what I'd do. Again, I expect opinions and mileage will vary.

PJMOD :mp5:

 

[expressdog01]

Screw That Break His Leg