My wing chun experience so far and MMA

WcForMe

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Hi all, ive been a long time lurker on this forum and after reading the majority of posts in the wing chun section ive deceided to post.*

A tiny bit of my background to start with so you get a very rough idea of what i have been doing and where i am coming from.

I live in england and have been practicing wing chun for just over a year. I had very little martial arts experience to begin with. Two lessons of karate and a few of various shoalin kung fu styles as well as reading the tao of jeet kune do and various other books. In my younger days i wouldnt mind a tear up and never went looking for it. So im no pro fighter or triple black belt blah blah. That said i wanted to learn wing chun ever since i was 18 but didnt drive then and foud it hard to find a good teacher. Like 9 years late im living my dream well kind of.

Im currently learning a variation of nick smarts autodefense system. Nick smart trained with learnt from Leung Ting so you have a idea of lineage. My sifu did 18 years of judo then learnt wing chun and currently has been practicing for around 20 years. He was put a system together with wing chun and applying some ground game with it too. Not loads of grappling and ground work but enough to make sure if it goes that way you have a good idea. Probabaly all thinking oh no another watered down modifyied wing chun system! But please trust me although i dont have loads of experience in wing chun im no fool and have visited he majority of other wing chun classes in a 30mile radius and i feel my sifu and the system is best for me. And really i can only speak about myself.

I train for two hours a night wing chun with an hour of gym/cardio workout every tuesday wednesday friday and saturday. Mondays and tursdays is class for two hours but usually i do an hour of gym/cardio work before i go. Sunday is a sparring day with my friend from my wc class. He is good and spend 2 to 3 hours training. Basically because i love wing chun and devote alot of time to it i have accelerated way past the majority of my class mates. I still keep myself grounded and just tell myself im a rubbish fighter regardless of the praise i get from my class mates and sifu. Everybody trains for different reasons. I train to become a good well versed fighter. Majority in my class and most in my limited experience is for the social side and to say i train martial arts and im x belt. I hate belts gives people false confidence in there fighting ability. So now lets get to the point in my heading.*

Basically i have got bored of going to the same class and wiping the floor with most guys. I love a hard spar session but most in traditinal systems most do not seem to want to do that to much at least in my area of england. As i said went to other wc classes and the result was the same. So what can i do to fufil a proper training regime like the good old boys in the 70s and 80s?*

Mma was the answer i thought. So now i have done two training sessions with these guys. Everybody i spoke to said "youl die, your get killed"* etc because of the riducilous media hype etc. I said they are just guys like me who wanna train a bit harder and spar harder. Not kill me, im only training at the moment not competing.*

So looked around at a few classes and decided to get stuck in having only done a month and a half of very part time grappling and ground work. So ive been twice so far now. First time loads of cardio work, half hour of bjj and half hour of solid had sparring in and out of the cage. Now the point of this post is does wing chun work in a cage. I mean proper wing chun not just chain punching like most seem to do. Now we have all read at some time wing chun is to deadly for the cage. In my opinion his is absolute rubbish. Yeah i cant kick the guy in the baby making area or chop a guy in the throat etc so what?*

I just used my footwork, using pak, tan, bong etc and of course straight punches. This first time i had to wear proper boxing gloves (which i have never ever used) and because i had no shin pads no kicks. So i found it hard. I love to kick to bridge the gap then get in and stay in like all good wc. So no kicks found it hard to get the range i wanted. Sparred with about 4 different guys. They all said the same thing mate you ate so hard to fight. The way you fight is great keep doing what you do. I wasnt happy with my fighting that day. But i thought first time in a cage in unfamilar surrounding in big gloves ive never used before and no kicks or thoart shots etc.*

Second time was last night. This time i had gone and bought shin pads. I was allowed to use standard mma gloves too which is what im used to. This time was loads better. Because of the gloves and shin pads i felt alot more confident. Constantly pushing my attacker up the cage using pins and sweep techniques. Bridging the gaps was easier this time with kicks allowed which turned into alot more devistating combos to the head and body. Palms and chops to the floating ribs etc. Various kicking techniques but none about the belt as per my style landed nicely on most.*

Again fought a few different guys. All different guys to my first session and the same response. Hard to fight me and pin me down to a corner or take me down.* The only thing i find hard is im not allowed to elbow but can knee. But as you wc guys know close range is all about the elbows:)*

To sum it all up wing chun does and can work in a cage. Yes you have to adapt some of what you do granted. But you tell me any fight ever were you dont adapt to the surroundings or the fighter your fighting? Yes wc is way more leathal on the street or self defense but still works in a cage if you have a brain and are willing to think about things.*

The guys i was fighting styles included western boxing, silat, kickboxing, wrestling, karate, taewando or however you spell it to name a few. All are either wreslters or bjj as well. So a good mix of styles but there are more. Can anybody else tell me where you can go and test your skill legally against such a wide range of styles and different sized opponents? Also i think it shows alot of your weaknesses that you may not be aware of. Better to find out now than in a proper self defense situation if you couldnt talk your way out of it.*

P.s this is only my experience and only me any questions just post believe i have tried to cover most things. Also please ingore any spelling or puntuation im using my phone and its annoying to do a long post on! Like i said im just a normal guy who likes to train hard. Im not an ego person and dont think im the best or hardest fighter. I think my ability is rubbish.but hey gotta start somewhere!*

Many thanks for reading.


Sent from Samsung Mobile
 

geezer

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Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the informative post. Like you, my background comes out of Leung Ting Wing Tsun. I'm well past the stage of life where I will be testing my skills in the ring, but total props to those of you who do. You guys are the ones who will keep our art real. BTW what's your take on Alan Orr's efforts to apply WC to ring competition?
 
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WcForMe

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Hi geezer thanks for the warm welcome. I wasnt too sure how his post would go down well so appreciated. I remeber seeing the Alan Orr post. Went and found it and i see you started the op for the that :)

Well after rewatching it with my very limited experience in wing chun and even less in mma hes got some good points and some bad. I personally think if u actually know what all the form movements do you should be applying them in any type of combat ring or not. I have learnt all four of our forms well i say learnt i know them.all but not mastered as you can tell by the length of time i have trained. If you can fight using all these form movement thats what wing chun is all about surely? I bong sao close range punches in sparring and my mma classes. I use pak sao, lan sao all the time. As far as i can tell anybody so far i just cant chop to the thoart or elbow the guy in the head (unless youve turned pro apparently). So why must you change most other things.

All these mma fighters ive seen are used to boxers muay thai that sort of fighters. To have a guy half your size coming forward at you throwing quick powerful punches stepping to the side of you still pushing forward still throwing punches to the ribs face or whatever then come back straight at you still punching still going forward then hook arm your neck into a knee then being sweeped etc etc etc they dont know what hit them. There used to punch and somebody keeping distance. There not used to that sort of quick refusing to retreat power.

The guys im fighting are not pros, some do compete in comps and fight nights but amateur. These guys are the same as most of us. Train for fun and fitness and for confidence not to hurt you kill you or whatever. Some of the guys you fight are massive like huge but use wing chun and adapt. Why change?

Again only my 2cents as the americans say i could be totally wrong in anybody elses eyes.
 

VT_Vectis

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I just like to say great post and welcome to the forum. As geezer said, its good to hear from someone who's testing their Ving Tsun against other styles and finding what works for them in reality. As a system, irrespective of lineage, we consider ourselves to be learning something that is effective in real life or death situations and are quick to talk of Wong Shun Leung, Leung Sheung et al fighting prowess; yet how many of us or our sifu's have been in a proper dust up since school? Or stepped in to the ring for full contact, full aggresion fighting? Precious few, I fear.


I hope in the future you'll go to pass what you've learned and refined through actual combat on to others. Fair play to you mate, and once I've reached the decent level and time spent training I hope I have the balls to do the same.
 
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WcForMe

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Many thanks for the welcome and kind words Vt-Vectis,

We have all heard of this romantic street top fights image but in reality now at this time it just doesnt happen not at least in my area. I think pressure testing is so important. For me it actually shows what i have learnt, what information i retain and draw on when a lil bit of adrenaline is present. But still you know its in a safe enviroment so to an actual street encounter the aderaline is very little i would assume.

But still its good to know if you can keep a calm head in a stressful encounter in the ring or octogon you might have a little chance of doing that for real or so is my theory.

Ive had a few dust ups in my time but not many and nobody actually got that hurt but none since i have started training. If i go my whole life never having to use my wing chun in an actual life or death, self defense situation or to protect my family il be happy thats the key for me.

But as i said in my ealier post where can you go to fight different styles/systems without ego or street fights or being silly and trying to start interschool warfare hahaha. I have had two wing chun teachers but i use the second one when i can afford the extra money with everything i do. Both my sifus say "why fight wing chun guys all the time. U know what he wants to do and he knows what u gunna do" im not saying never fight your own style/system that would be stupid. But you want a real test of abilty try it agaist an opponent who doesnt punch like you doesnt kick or move like you. There angles of punches and kicks are vastly different to our own.

If your a master then im sure its no problem, but me not being a master or anywhere close to that or even a teacher i found the translation from stopping say a wing chun hook is different from stopping a good boxers hook. The power, the slight difference in angle and im sure many more things footwork for example make it a bit different to stop than what i am used to in my wing chun training. Wing chun is a deadly self defense tool but is only as good as the practioner. If you havnt tested yourself out with other styles/systems, different people of all shapes and sizes how do you know what works for you or agaist various opponents before push comes to shove.

I dont think ive reached a decent level of abitilty but this is definatly helping me and my wing chun. Learning to grow from the experiences. That is one of the ways i believe you can get to a decent level at least for me. I dont really think having balls is to much to do with it. If you could walk into your dojo or kwoon or class or whatever by yourself and learn thats half the battle. Same as this i built it up to be something way More scary that what it actually is.

That said i had my first pretty much full power mma sparring bout on friday with a guy who is in my weight class and has a fight upcoming in three weeks. He wanted a parnter that wanted to go close to full power damn i stepped up thinking its wouldnt be that much different. That was ALOT different to the other two sessions i had been to. He has i think 2 years of boxing and 1 year of bbj under his belt. It ended up being a tie but let me tell you, when you have a guy trying to pound your face in from above you soon learn what to do. That actual situation was pretty scary and stressful even in the controlled enviroment. I ended it by a counter straight punching the guy on the chin and pulling guard and rolling him over for a taste of the other side. But the point is it shocked me. It took a few secs of waving my hands around in his general direction like a girl until i was like ok calm down what have you been taught, then BAAMM training kicks in. That should be automatic reflexs but i was happy i was manage to control the situation and hopefully learn something. This is why i decided to try it to see what sticks and what doesnt.

What i defiantly learnt that session is if you wanna be a mma fighter your ground game best be superb! I have very little experience in this and just surviving and getting a few cheeky locks and holds and throws on just isnt good enough. Experience is key. I just dont have enough but that comes with time and practice. I felt soo proud that it was a tie. Ok not a real mma fight or a crowd (only the other guys in the class obviuously) and only the coach calling the finish but still. My just over a year of training wing chun and my month and a half of judo served me well. And before anybody says he cant be a good fighter cos i know thats whats coming. He was won a few golds in grappling comps and a few mma wins. Ok not a ufc fighter or actual pro but neither am i so im happy.

Id love to be a coach sifu teacher or whatever in like 8 years time. Help ring fighters and self defense people alike to actually learn some useful stuff. But to do that i feel i need a good varied experience in my choosen fields before helping others. But just because it works for me it might not work for you!

i think it was Emin Boztepe who said something like "why did you think i trained boxing, wrestling, karate etc etc not to learn those style or systems to make my wing chun better"

Know im no Emin worshipper but that makes sense to me.

Quite a few views but i thought there would be a bit more of a dicussion about this. Dont be shy good or bad lets hear your views. Also am i rot i thinking most guys and girls that post in this wing chun section are teachers? I am mearly a student and this is only my views love to hear more on this.
 
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Cyriacus

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You write very long replies, good sir.

"That said i had my first pretty much full power mma sparring bout on friday with a guy who is in my weight class and has a fight upcoming in three weeks. He wanted a parnter that wanted to go close to full power damn i stepped up thinking its wouldnt be that much different. That was ALOT different to the other two sessions i had been to. He has i think 2 years of boxing and 1 year of bbj under his belt. It ended up being a tie but let me tell you, when you have a guy trying to pound your face in from above you soon learn what to do. That actual situation was pretty scary and stressful even in the controlled enviroment. I ended it by a counter straight punching the guy on the chin and pulling guard and rolling him over for a taste of the other side. But the point is it shocked me. It took a few secs of waving my hands around in his general direction like a girl until i was like ok calm down what have you been taught, then BAAMM training kicks in. That should be automatic reflexs but i was happy i was manage to control the situation and hopefully learn something. This is why i decided to try it to see what sticks and what doesnt."

Here, lemme translate:
Step 1: Oh god, what do i do!
Step 2: DEFEND! JUST DEFEND. DONT GET HIT, JESUS CHRIST.
Step 3: This is not helping. This is not helping. This is not helping.
Step 4: Crap, i actually need to do something!
Step 5: DO AS YOURE TOLD, YOU STUPID LIMBS
Step 6: *does something useful*
Step 7: RIGHT. Now just keep going and dont let him do that again...

I.e., im pretty sure most folks sorta do that the first time they get to taste intensity. :)
Its pretty great.
 
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WcForMe

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Here, lemme translate:
Step 1: Oh god, what do i do!
Step 2: DEFEND! JUST DEFEND. DONT GET HIT, JESUS CHRIST.
Step 3: This is not helping. This is not helping. This is not helping.
Step 4: Crap, i actually need to do something!
Step 5: DO AS YOURE TOLD, YOU STUPID LIMBS
Step 6: *does something useful*
Step 7: RIGHT. Now just keep going and dont let him do that again...

I.e., im pretty sure most folks sorta do that the first time they get to taste intensity. :)
Its pretty great.

Hi mate well i do love a long reply. Mainly to give some actual detail without being shot down and making a million posts or so is the idea.The above comment aint to far from the truth to be honest. I wouldnt be as panicky as that comes across, everything you listed i did think at some point mainly on the floor though. The stand up was ok still got hit but its the ground work that is litterly actually like like your saying. Full respect to mma fighters this was still a sparring match. Reality to what you think reality is is two seperate things. I just love the mma mentallity towqrds training with all the cardio and the way the lessons are set up.

Im not competing at the moment long way to go until then but for a test and to gain expereince second to none.
 

Domino

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Welcome to the forums !
What I would say knees are allowed so can you not use knees like feet in terms of entry?
 
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WcForMe

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Hi guys yeah you can use knees and flying knees as point of entry if you wanted to.

Im located on the borders of hampshire and surrey near guildford, farnborough, camberley and aldershot areas.
 

WingChunIan

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Many thanks for the welcome and kind words Vt-Vectis,

We have all heard of this romantic street top fights image but in reality now at this time it just doesnt happen not at least in my area. I think pressure testing is so important. For me it actually shows what i have learnt, what information i retain and draw on when a lil bit of adrenaline is present. But still you know its in a safe enviroment so to an actual street encounter the aderaline is very little i would assume.

But still its good to know if you can keep a calm head in a stressful encounter in the ring or octogon you might have a little chance of doing that for real or so is my theory.

Ive had a few dust ups in my time but not many and nobody actually got that hurt but none since i have started training. If i go my whole life never having to use my wing chun in an actual life or death, self defense situation or to protect my family il be happy thats the key for me.

But as i said in my ealier post where can you go to fight different styles/systems without ego or street fights or being silly and trying to start interschool warfare hahaha. I have had two wing chun teachers but i use the second one when i can afford the extra money with everything i do. Both my sifus say "why fight wing chun guys all the time. U know what he wants to do and he knows what u gunna do" im not saying never fight your own style/system that would be stupid. But you want a real test of abilty try it agaist an opponent who doesnt punch like you doesnt kick or move like you. There angles of punches and kicks are vastly different to our own.

If your a master then im sure its no problem, but me not being a master or anywhere close to that or even a teacher i found the translation from stopping say a wing chun hook is different from stopping a good boxers hook. The power, the slight difference in angle and im sure many more things footwork for example make it a bit different to stop than what i am used to in my wing chun training. Wing chun is a deadly self defense tool but is only as good as the practioner. If you havnt tested yourself out with other styles/systems, different people of all shapes and sizes how do you know what works for you or agaist various opponents before push comes to shove.

I dont think ive reached a decent level of abitilty but this is definatly helping me and my wing chun. Learning to grow from the experiences. That is one of the ways i believe you can get to a decent level at least for me. I dont really think having balls is to much to do with it. If you could walk into your dojo or kwoon or class or whatever by yourself and learn thats half the battle. Same as this i built it up to be something way More scary that what it actually is.

That said i had my first pretty much full power mma sparring bout on friday with a guy who is in my weight class and has a fight upcoming in three weeks. He wanted a parnter that wanted to go close to full power damn i stepped up thinking its wouldnt be that much different. That was ALOT different to the other two sessions i had been to. He has i think 2 years of boxing and 1 year of bbj under his belt. It ended up being a tie but let me tell you, when you have a guy trying to pound your face in from above you soon learn what to do. That actual situation was pretty scary and stressful even in the controlled enviroment. I ended it by a counter straight punching the guy on the chin and pulling guard and rolling him over for a taste of the other side. But the point is it shocked me. It took a few secs of waving my hands around in his general direction like a girl until i was like ok calm down what have you been taught, then BAAMM training kicks in. That should be automatic reflexs but i was happy i was manage to control the situation and hopefully learn something. This is why i decided to try it to see what sticks and what doesnt.

What i defiantly learnt that session is if you wanna be a mma fighter your ground game best be superb! I have very little experience in this and just surviving and getting a few cheeky locks and holds and throws on just isnt good enough. Experience is key. I just dont have enough but that comes with time and practice. I felt soo proud that it was a tie. Ok not a real mma fight or a crowd (only the other guys in the class obviuously) and only the coach calling the finish but still. My just over a year of training wing chun and my month and a half of judo served me well. And before anybody says he cant be a good fighter cos i know thats whats coming. He was won a few golds in grappling comps and a few mma wins. Ok not a ufc fighter or actual pro but neither am i so im happy.

Id love to be a coach sifu teacher or whatever in like 8 years time. Help ring fighters and self defense people alike to actually learn some useful stuff. But to do that i feel i need a good varied experience in my choosen fields before helping others. But just because it works for me it might not work for you!

i think it was Emin Boztepe who said something like "why did you think i trained boxing, wrestling, karate etc etc not to learn those style or systems to make my wing chun better"

Know im no Emin worshipper but that makes sense to me.

Quite a few views but i thought there would be a bit more of a dicussion about this. Dont be shy good or bad lets hear your views. Also am i rot i thinking most guys and girls that post in this wing chun section are teachers? I am mearly a student and this is only my views love to hear more on this.
Congratulations on your first "fight", you probably did better than many would have done in the same situation teacher or otherwise. You are of course right that for mma you'll need to develop a ground game and its hard to look past bjj (where incidently your relaxation, sensitivity and elbow control from wing chun will help immensely) but I would also stress the importance of a good take down defence. Too many mma fighters become comfortable with their ground game and neglect their take down defence, but a number of top level fighters have shown recently that if you have a good striking game and can avoid take downs then you can be very successful.
 

Domino

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(where incidently your relaxation, sensitivity and elbow control from wing chun will help immensely)

I remember something that Carlson Gracie said about WC and BJJ being like sister arts in many many ways.
 

Argus

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I remember something that Carlson Gracie said about WC and BJJ being like sister arts in many many ways.

I recall Jin Young (thechinaboxer) making a similar comment.

Incidentally, there's actually a BJJ instructor at my Wing Chun school, and I know that my Sifu and a lot of his students also do BJJ. I haven't given it a go yet, but it looks pretty interesting.
 
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WcForMe

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How about an update? Any new experiences?

Not really from me to be honest. I've stopped doing so much mma to concentrate purely on my wing chun training. I learnt a lot from the experiences I had with these guys. My plan was to go back training with the mma guys after the Christmas period to see if my wing chun techniques had improved. I have been training a lot after my experiences and going to various seminars. It was such a good way to see what could possibly work in a live hard fight experience without just going out and street fighting. And where else can you go stand and bang with a wide range of martial artists in a controlled enviroment? As I said it's all well and good just fighting wing chun guys. But overall this doesn't help you out or your art if you don't try against other styles and systems. Emin had that bit right. Do various other systems and styles to learn how they throw various different trajectories of kicks elbows knees and punches. Was a big eye opener. I would reccomend it to any wing chun practitioner. That said nobody I train with wants to go and they still think I'm just crazy.

I don't mind bjj, judo etc but stand up is the most interesting thing for me personally. To be competitive within mma you need such a tight ground game and I just don't have the time in the day to cross train effectively. Wing chun is my passion and will remain so. Also if I wanted to be a serious contender wing chun in General would not be the most effective stand up game within mma. That said I still stand by my original comments. You can make wing chun work for you in a octogon setting. And centreline theory I believe is universal no matter where you are fighting! Overall I have grown as a fighter/martial artist and a person. Please bear in mind I have only been training 1 year and 8 monthes now. I can use Wc to my advantage and I do train between 4 to 5 days a weeks for 2 to 3 hours including two classes per week. So I've really thrown myself into it or as much as my free time allows. Don't worry more wing chun mma stories for you all to hear and talk about in the new year.

Wishing all on martialtalk and happy Christmas and a great new year! Happy training!
 

wingchun100

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Great post. We need to hear from more people who are REALLY using wing chun in the ring and not those who claim to be.
 

Domino

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Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun teacher Alan Orr's student Josh Kaldani out of Leicester.
 
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