Must not visit other schools without permission?

[Carol]

Earlier today I loaded up the website for a particular school, looking for some information.

After finding what I was looking for, I clicked on the link for the school's rules, just curious to see what they posted. There was a list of rules that you might expect...no cell phones on the mat, let the instructor know right away if you are hurt, etc. They also had a rule about not visiting other martial arts schools without the instructor's permission.

I have to admit, I have heard of this rule before but never quite understood it. Why the need for such a rule? Why would it be anyone's business if a student takes a seminar or visits a friend?

Discuss

 

[clfsean]

That's odd... I've never done that. I've never actually had that done to me either.

Inferiority complex maybe? I understand the business side loss of income, but if what you're doing isn't keeping people, putting a silly rule like that up isn't going to stop anything.

 

[harlan]

I don't find it odd, depending on the school and situation.

Depending on what is being studied, a visit to another similar school unannounced in certain circles was considered a challenge, and orchestrated by the teacher of the visitor. So, in one sense, it's proactive, vetting the visit, and keeping a noob making/encountering trouble and a bad rep for the school. Bad manners in some circles.

For other studies, I've personally pointed students/others to local aikido, iaido, kendo, Uechi, and bagua teachers. And also suggested some to avoid. A teacher should be willing to recommend a good school. Or what to possibly look for in the visit.

I don't see a problem encouraging people to visit other schools - but to do it respectfully and contact them in advance to ask their permission to visit. My only rule is that they aren't allowed to show/share what they study with me. If another person is interested, they have to show up to check it out.

That said, I like to know if someone is going to be serious and stay with me. If after a certain amount of time I get the sense that they are still 'shopping around', or trying to bring other elements into the study while they are still beginners, I'd have to have a talk with them.

Earlier today I loaded up the website for a particular school, looking for some information.

After finding what I was looking for, I clicked on the link for the school's rules, just curious to see what they posted. There was a list of rules that you might expect...no cell phones on the mat, let the instructor know right away if you are hurt, etc. They also had a rule about not visiting other martial arts schools without the instructor's permission.

I have to admit, I have heard of this rule before but never quite understood it. Why the need for such a rule? Why would it be anyone's business if a student takes a seminar or visits a friend?

Discuss

 

[shesulsa]

I don't find it odd, depending on the school and situation.

Depending on what is being studied, a visit to another similar school unannounced in certain circles was considered a challenge, and orchestrated by the teacher of the visitor. So, in one sense, it's proactive, vetting the visit, and keeping a noob making/encountering trouble and a bad rep for the school. Bad manners in some circles.

For other studies, I've personally pointed students/others to local aikido, iaido, kendo, Uechi, and bagua teachers. And also suggested some to avoid. A teacher should be willing to recommend a good school. Or what to possibly look for in the visit.

I don't see a problem encouraging people to visit other schools - but to do it respectfully and contact them in advance to ask their permission to visit. My only rule is that they aren't allowed to show/share what they study with me. If another person is interested, they have to show up to check it out.

That said, I like to know if someone is going to be serious and stay with me. If after a certain amount of time I get the sense that they are still 'shopping around', or trying to bring other elements into the study while they are still beginners, I'd have to have a talk with them.

Pretty much this, traditionally speaking. I would want to be represented by someone who had impeccable manners, who could be non-assuming and who knew well how to foster brotherhood and sense if such effort was welcome and to graciously retreat if necessary.

This would be common sense for some, especially many on this board (including you, Carol). Others? Not so much.

 

[Steve]

I don't think anyone around here in the BJJ community has that rule, but they might. There is value, though, in asking the instructor. I know that it's helpful in BJJ because you can get hooked up with a good school while travelling. Often, it's about networking and getting introductions to friends of friends, where you can train while unable to attend classes at your regular school.

So, in BJJ, it's more along the lines of asking "Who do you know?" than for permission.

 

[lklawson]

I've seen this before and have heard several different suggestions.

1) (on the charitable side) They don't want the student getting confused by different systems which may or may not be compatible with their system.
2) (uncharitably) They aren't confident that their stuff is really good enough to keep a student who shops around.

Personally, I think either one is bunk and, if there ever was a real reason for such a rule (such as the above suggested "challenge" issues), they don't apply very well today.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[shesulsa]

I will say that when I was attempting to organize a benefit for St. Jude I had some school instructors comment that being in the same room with competitors and maintaining a proper social quorum would be difficult.

If they can't even be in the same room together for a charitable event, they likely wouldn't be accepting of an uninvited visitor.

 

[pgsmith]

I can think of a number of reasons for this rule. If the head of the school in question has happened to have a run in with another instructor in the area, his students would probably not get a very genial welcome. (I knew of a case like that near here). If the head of the school knows that there are several make-believe schools in the area, he would no doubt wish for his students to avoid visiting there (I know of a case like that near here also). Perhaps the instuctor is familiar with all of the other instructors in the area, and wants to be able to advise his student about his visit (this dojo is very formal, that one is very physical, etc ...) There are any number of reasons for the instructor to want to know where his students are going without there being any jealousy or fear of losing students. WHenever a student is visiting another dojo, he is a representative of whoever his primary instructor is. I'm sure there are a number of instructors that would like to keep tabs on where they are being represented.

 

[Carol]

I don't think anyone around here in the BJJ community has that rule, but they might. There is value, though, in asking the instructor. I know that it's helpful in BJJ because you can get hooked up with a good school while travelling. Often, it's about networking and getting introductions to friends of friends, where you can train while unable to attend classes at your regular school.

So, in BJJ, it's more along the lines of asking "Who do you know?" than for permission.

Actually, I saw this on a website for a BJJ school. I have to admit that kind of surprised me, that's more of a rule I would associate with more traditional schools.

 

[pgsmith]

Actually, I saw this on a website for a BJJ school. I have to admit that kind of surprised me, that's more of a rule I would associate with more traditional schools.

Now that is a bit surprising. None of the BJJ folks that I know would be inclined to care, although I suppose my original reasons could apply just as easily to BJJ as to any other art.

 

[harlan]

A little unexpected for BJJ. But you have to admit, it's the wild west 'out there', and there have always been unethical and unskilled people setting up shop and flying under the radar. I'd ask the school owner straight up: either insecurity or looking out for his students' safety?

Honestly, I've knowledge of one school that offers 'bjj' and other popular arts that get people through the door, but that was really little more than grooming a stable of cage fighters and illegal betting.

Actually, I saw this on a website for a BJJ school. I have to admit that kind of surprised me, that's more of a rule I would associate with more traditional schools.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Then based on themembers of MT that are BJJ who are saying it will not happen at a BJJ school orthat they are surprised it is a BJJ school I am guessing they are afraid thatif you go visit another BJJ school you will see how much they are actually NOTteaching you at the school in question

 

[Steve]

Then based on themembers of MT that are BJJ who are saying it will not happen at a BJJ school orthat they are surprised it is a BJJ school I am guessing they are afraid thatif you go visit another BJJ school you will see how much they are actually NOTteaching you at the school in question

Could be, but I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt until/unless I see evidence to the contrary.

I wonder if it was a gracie Barra affiliatel. Ring a bell, Carol? Gracie Barra is about as close to an "affiliation" as BJJ has, I think. It's international, has thousands of "Affiliate" schools and the school owners pay a pretty penny for the privilege (I'm not literate; I'm alliterate!) They teach from a prescribed curriculum and are required to wear GB only gis, and track attendance and such. It's different than the way a lot of us train BJJ.

 

[geezer]

Earlier today I loaded up the website for a particular school, looking for some information.

After finding what I was looking for, I clicked on the link for the school's rules, just curious to see what they posted. There was a list of rules that you might expect...no cell phones on the mat, let the instructor know right away if you are hurt, etc. They also had a rule about not visiting other martial arts schools without the instructor's permission.

I have to admit, I have heard of this rule before but never quite understood it. Why the need for such a rule? Why would it be anyone's business if a student takes a seminar or visits a friend?

Discuss

In my old organization there were attitudes like that, and one senior instructor enforced just such a rule. It wasn't just insecurity, but a kind of cult-like mixture of blind loyalty to the grandmaster and a desire to control everything about the system, the students, and so forth.

Now that I train with other ex-members of the association, that senior instructor I mentioned isn't even allowed to talk to me ...even though we've known each other since 1979. A couple of his students have asked me if they can visit my classes. They are always welcome, but I warn them that they may get in hot water with their sifu. Ironically, he kicked out one guy for visiting my class, and the poor guy had nowhere else to go. So, now he's my student. He's got good technique too. His old sifu is a very knowledgeable guy. Just nuts. Pretty funny eh?

 

[Carol]

Could be, but I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt until/unless I see evidence to the contrary.

I wonder if it was a gracie Barra affiliatel. Ring a bell, Carol? Gracie Barra is about as close to an "affiliation" as BJJ has, I think. It's international, has thousands of "Affiliate" schools and the school owners pay a pretty penny for the privilege (I'm not literate; I'm alliterate!) They teach from a prescribed curriculum and are required to wear GB only gis, and track attendance and such. It's different than the way a lot of us train BJJ.

Not a Gracie Barra school actually, the GB school here is huge! It has really taken off. This is the "other guy" that also teaches BJJ in town.

 

[Nomad]

It's an interesting rule that I've run across before. It can arise from many different causes, as has been noted, from the honorable (helping guide students away from charlatans) to the selfish (wanting to control who represents your school elsewhere, and how they go about it) to the fearful (don't let students see what else is being offered, because maybe they'll see that it's better than what you're doing), to the cult-like (controlling student's behavior and thoughts outside the dojo simply because you can).

IMHO, regardless of the root cause, it's a poor rule to write and enforce because it is likely to backfire on you. Either you'll have people assuming that the rule's been installed for the "wrong" reasons, or you'll have folks that want to challenge it just because it's there, and they don't believe you should have control over their lives while you're not training.

Simpler to ask students to let you know if they're visiting or checking out another dojo, and let them know that you'd be happy to provide recommendations and pointers on how to do this correctly to avoid any misunderstandings. IMO, if students want to leave, they'll leave, regardless of how easy or difficult you make the process. OTOH, by showing them trust and loyalty, you're likely to see it returned in kind.

 

[Steve]

Well, I am pretty sure I found the school you're referring to. If so, it looks legit... just very, very traditional. That list of rules was lengthy.

At my school, the rules are pretty simple.

1. Don't be late.
2. If you're going to be late call.
3. If you're late and you didn't call, expect to do ropes or burpees, usually one per minute you're late.
4. Don't lean on the walls.
5. Wear your shoes whenever you go to the bathroom.
6. Don't ever wear your shoes on the mat.
7. Everyone helps clean.
8. Be nice.

That's pretty much it. There are some other, more casual rules, like upper belt has the right of way when sparring, but it's really pretty mellow.

 

[Carol]

Well, I am pretty sure I found the school you're referring to. If so, it looks legit... just very, very traditional. That list of rules was lengthy.

At my school, the rules are pretty simple.

1. Don't be late.
2. If you're going to be late call.
3. If you're late and you didn't call, expect to do ropes or burpees, usually one per minute you're late.
4. Don't lean on the walls.
5. Wear your shoes whenever you go to the bathroom.
6. Don't ever wear your shoes on the mat.
7. Everyone helps clean.
8. Be nice.

That's pretty much it. There are some other, more casual rules, like upper belt has the right of way when sparring, but it's really pretty mellow.

Yup, that was a long list of rules. Not necessarily interested in training there myself but I did think it was interesting that they offered a women's only class.

 

[Steve]

Yup, that was a long list of rules. Not necessarily interested in training there myself but I did think it was interesting that they offered a women's only class.

Yeah, but it looks like they've only got four women, according to the team pictures.

 

[shima]

Earlier today I loaded up the website for a particular school, looking for some information.

After finding what I was looking for, I clicked on the link for the school's rules, just curious to see what they posted. There was a list of rules that you might expect...no cell phones on the mat, let the instructor know right away if you are hurt, etc. They also had a rule about not visiting other martial arts schools without the instructor's permission.

I have to admit, I have heard of this rule before but never quite understood it. Why the need for such a rule? Why would it be anyone's business if a student takes a seminar or visits a friend?

Discuss

The first school I studied at had this rule. I visited my cousin's school to watch him (about 30 minutes away from my school) to be a good supportive older cousin who was also doing martial arts... and my sensei found out later and told me I was only allowed to visit there if I cleared it with him first. In that case, pretty sure it had been an inferiority complex issue.