OP
- Thread Starter
- #21
Or at least 4 women who don't mind having their photos online. That could very well be 4 more than the GB school has. Its not a miracle, but its a start.
Must not visit other schools without permission?
- Thread starter Carol
- Start date
Or at least 4 women who don't mind having their photos online. That could very well be 4 more than the GB school has. Its not a miracle, but its a start.
I have seen this attitude with some locals.
It falls into what people have stated already though:
1) Cult like mentality. Either they are following a cult person or they want to be the next cult person.
2) Fear of loosing students to the latest rush of the week. Also why many have contracts.
3) Lack of confidence in what they teach
4) Lack in understanding what others teach and also what they teach and how to answer questions
5) Reputation, i.e. who is representing the club
6) Bad blood already in place, which could lead to issues for student and they should be aware to protect themselves. (* Note they should already, but many are trusting *)
7) The reflection - If other club has the rule then they have the rule
I have asked some where they would like to train elsewhere. Others have just left and not come back. It does not bother me. If you are not happy then go find a place where you are.
I also tell people to go train with others of that is what they want, but that it can be confusing to be a beginner in multiple systems/arts. Also to protect themselves.
It falls into what people have stated already though:
1) Cult like mentality. Either they are following a cult person or they want to be the next cult person.
2) Fear of loosing students to the latest rush of the week. Also why many have contracts.
3) Lack of confidence in what they teach
4) Lack in understanding what others teach and also what they teach and how to answer questions
5) Reputation, i.e. who is representing the club
6) Bad blood already in place, which could lead to issues for student and they should be aware to protect themselves. (* Note they should already, but many are trusting *)
7) The reflection - If other club has the rule then they have the rule
I have asked some where they would like to train elsewhere. Others have just left and not come back. It does not bother me. If you are not happy then go find a place where you are.
I also tell people to go train with others of that is what they want, but that it can be confusing to be a beginner in multiple systems/arts. Also to protect themselves.
There are a few schools in the greater area that I have been warned against going to for one reason or another, but, my instructor has purposely had me go to schools teaching substandard material to get a greater appreciation for what I am being taught, too...
- Joined
- May 17, 2011
- Messages
- 2,419
- Reaction score
- 329
This is a very odd, and unnecessary rule. And one that isn't realistically enforceable. What would the instructor do, suspend you? Kick you out? Unless he's the only game in a small town he'd be the one losing out in the end. A good instructor would/should encourage a student to expand, particularly in areas that he/she is not fluent in. This makes for a well-rounded student. I'll never forget Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming mentioning in an interview in the JAMA that the truest tribute a student can do for his/her instructor is to surpass them in knowledge.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
Holy cow. To legislate such a thing so you cannot even watch a young cousin have a go at his class? Dang.
I don't think I understand why a certain subset of instructors have control issues like that, but unfortunately they do seem to be out there.
Devil's advocate, there are instructors around who teach the same style as me in a completely different way and I don't particularly want my gung-ho impressionable white belts training with someone who has an entirely different perspective than me. I'd rather have them understand my perspective and my philosophy before they go absorb someone else's. That said, I wouldn't forbid it especially if the purpose was to get some training in while traveling.
I mean schools who have the same focus as me, btw, which is Taekwondo for the sake of Taekwondo and lots of sport. I have instructors with different focus than me come in and teach my class when I can.
I know it's not smart but my students parents know which other schools I think highly of and which I don't. I make it clear and it isn't hard to tell anyway by who I associate with and who I avoid.
I mean schools who have the same focus as me, btw, which is Taekwondo for the sake of Taekwondo and lots of sport. I have instructors with different focus than me come in and teach my class when I can.
I know it's not smart but my students parents know which other schools I think highly of and which I don't. I make it clear and it isn't hard to tell anyway by who I associate with and who I avoid.
WC_lun
Senior Master
If an instructor is not confident about thier material and training methodology, I can see them not wanting students to visit other schools. If they are confident and teaching students well, the students will easily be able to tell substandard training from good, real training. Unfortunately for many instructors the quality of training is lacking, but not the desire to make money from the uninformed.
I have also seen the cult of personality thing being used as a reason to not do some things. In my opinion, it still goes back to feeling inferior.
I do agree with not training at more than one place without the instrustor's permission. For one, it is just polite. Also, for beginners and many intermediates to train in more than one system would retard progression in both systems. We aren't talking about training in more than one system though, just visiting another school so it really isn't the same thing as traiing in multiple systems at once.
I have also seen the cult of personality thing being used as a reason to not do some things. In my opinion, it still goes back to feeling inferior.
I do agree with not training at more than one place without the instrustor's permission. For one, it is just polite. Also, for beginners and many intermediates to train in more than one system would retard progression in both systems. We aren't talking about training in more than one system though, just visiting another school so it really isn't the same thing as traiing in multiple systems at once.
lklawson
Grandmaster
And that's when you found another school to study at, right?
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I have little patience for martial arts instructors who feel they are entitled to control their students' lives or limit their learning outside their own schools. I wouldn't put up with a guitar teacher who told me I had to stay away from other music instruction without his approval. I wouldn't put up with a calculus professor who told me I wasn't allowed to take a linear algebra class from another instructor. Likewise, I wouldn't put up with a jujutsu instructor who told me I wasn't allowed to check out what other dojos were offering.
If a teacher thinks that I'll learn better if I'm only exposed to his instruction and nobody elses, then he can explain his reasoning and let me make the decision.
If a teacher is worried that I will represent his school poorly, then he can explain the proper respect and behavior to display when visiting other schools. (In general, I think more instructors should share this with their students anyway.)
If there is some sort of bad blood between dojos to the point where a friendly visit is taken as some sort of challenge, then everyone involved needs to grow up and get over it.
If a teacher thinks that I'll learn better if I'm only exposed to his instruction and nobody elses, then he can explain his reasoning and let me make the decision.
If a teacher is worried that I will represent his school poorly, then he can explain the proper respect and behavior to display when visiting other schools. (In general, I think more instructors should share this with their students anyway.)
If there is some sort of bad blood between dojos to the point where a friendly visit is taken as some sort of challenge, then everyone involved needs to grow up and get over it.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Guys, after looking at the website, there's no reason to believe that this guys isn't on the up and up. One thing to remember is that the BJJ community is competitive. There are competitions built into the art, and competing is very important. Here in the Seattle area, we have what I'd consider a friendly community, but it's not completely cool to skip around from school to school, particularly at the white belt level. I've never seen an overt rule list that comprehensive for a BJJ school, but this seriously looks like a guy who appreciates formality and wants to build a traditional atmosphere in his school.
Within a metropolitan area, many school owners would be opposed to their students dropping in without their knowledge at other BJJ schools. Key words, "without their knowledge."
Within a metropolitan area, many school owners would be opposed to their students dropping in without their knowledge at other BJJ schools. Key words, "without their knowledge."
OP
- Thread Starter
- #31
True, but I didn't post the website or the school for a reason, I was more interested in discussing the overall concept. In the case of the school I saw, I think the guy is indeed legit. But this happens in other places too...and it was a concept that eluded my grasp until I started the thread.
The issue that I have in general with a hard and fast rule about such a thing is that it legislates something that doesn't need to be legislated. For example, it does not take in to account that a student has trained before and may have other friends and relationships within the MA field, all of which can be maintained without taking away from the loyalty to their instructor.
The issue that I have in general with a hard and fast rule about such a thing is that it legislates something that doesn't need to be legislated. For example, it does not take in to account that a student has trained before and may have other friends and relationships within the MA field, all of which can be maintained without taking away from the loyalty to their instructor.
sfs982000
Master Black Belt
It's a very out dated way of thinking in my opinion. I've visited many different schools and it's never been an issue and I've taken away valuble information every single time and that is what it's all about in my opinion. Gaining information and improving your skills is the goal of every martial artist.
punisher73
Senior Master
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2004
- Messages
- 3,959
- Reaction score
- 1,058
Many moons ago when I had some training in BJJ, they talked about this alot. If you were associated with one instructor you did NOT go to someone else without permission. At the time there were very few schools and it was VERY competetive. It was very old school traditional thinking that you didn't share your "secrets" with anyone outside of the group. It had alot to do with the sports competition side of things. The more wins your school had, the better the reputation and the more students (remember most had never heard of it at the time) meant more money to put food on your table.
The times have really changed in the last 10 years or so for BJJ going from almost no schools anywhere and almost everyone knew everyone to having shady people try to take advantage of it's reputation and claiming that they teach it now.
punisher73
Senior Master
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2004
- Messages
- 3,959
- Reaction score
- 1,058
As to not visiting. I have had students that bounced around from school to school and seminar to seminar. They couldn't do ****! Even the basic techniques they only wanted to talk about how they learned this way or that way at this or that school/seminar. They couldn't empty their cup to learn what I had to offer. I can see an instructor just making a blanket statement to check before visiting. The instructor can recommend "why" it isn't good for the student if they are just starting out, they can also find out the reasons "why" they want to visit. Is it to just see the style and how they do things? Are they trying to combine what they do with what they are already doing? Or, their friend goes there and they just want to support them.
There are some styles, that have different body mechanics than other styles. Literally, the student will not be able to do both correctly. They will have to choose one or the other. It would be frustrating as hell for me to train them on how to perform a technique and have to recorrect the same mistakes over and over because their other instructor is telling them how to do it differently/correctly for their style.
Lastly, in the west, we have commercialized something that was never commercial. An instructor only took a small amount of students, and trained them according to their abilities and body type and developed a relationship with them. There was an unspoken bond that they student would help out around the dojo and sensei's house in exchange for the lessons, but money was never taken or asked for. I think right or wrong, some instructors feel insulted when they share their art and a student only looks at it as a service that they are paying for.
There are some styles, that have different body mechanics than other styles. Literally, the student will not be able to do both correctly. They will have to choose one or the other. It would be frustrating as hell for me to train them on how to perform a technique and have to recorrect the same mistakes over and over because their other instructor is telling them how to do it differently/correctly for their style.
Lastly, in the west, we have commercialized something that was never commercial. An instructor only took a small amount of students, and trained them according to their abilities and body type and developed a relationship with them. There was an unspoken bond that they student would help out around the dojo and sensei's house in exchange for the lessons, but money was never taken or asked for. I think right or wrong, some instructors feel insulted when they share their art and a student only looks at it as a service that they are paying for.
I've seen that too. I would attribute not to what they are doing (visiting different schools) but rather to what they aren't doing (devoting serious time and effort to the skills they want to develop).
This is why I said above that students should learn the correct attitude and behavior for when they visit other schools. If a student doesn't empty his cup, he/she will be wasting his/her own time as well as the time of training partners and the instructor. In fairness, I have occasionally seen this sort of behavior even with students who only attended one school. Instead of focusing on the technique that was being drilled at the moment, they wanted to spend their time talking about some different technique they saw the week before.
I don't know. Can a student learn both tennis and table-tennis and play both correctly? The games are similar enough that there is room for confusion, but the body mechanics are completely different.
In fact, it is entirely possible to learn both correctly. Of course, the student needs to know that the techniques and body mechanics of one will not apply to the other. Also, if the student spends 3 hours per week practicing each sport he/she will not progress as fast as if he/she spent 6 hours per week in just one. That's the tradeoff.
If a student is actively training two different arts with incompatible body mechanics at the same time, then the teacher should let the student know that it is necessary to keep the two separate, at least until the student has internalized the principles of each art.
That's a widespread romantic notion, but I don't know if there's a lot of historical truth to it. I know that the business of making a living by teaching martial arts goes back quite a long ways in Japan. I don't know how far back it goes in China, but it certainly goes back to a point before the CMA were widely taught to westerners.
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
In my town we have two Judo Schools and some (maybe a dozen) of the students go between the two of them to better their game. My club, which is the larger population wise, focuses more on randori and newaza; while the other club is more technical and kata (for the black belts). I don't bounce around since I am one of the coaches but I think the students benefit from the "open-border".
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
I must quickly add that both of our clubs are non-profit and all the instructors are volunteers.
It all depends upon what you are learning, and what you want to learn. If you wanted to learn cello from Yo-Yo Ma, but he said you were not allowed to visit other cello instructors, then you wouldn't visit any other cello instructors. If you just want to learn "martial arts", then you can pretty much do whatever you want as there are a plethors of martial arts schools. However, if you wanted to learn Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu jujutsu, then you do whatever that particular school dictates or you don't get to learn it.
There is most certainly very little historic truth in it within the Japanese martial arts. The vast majority of Japanese martial arts dojo were run as a way for the instructor to make a living.
Yep, and I chose option b. An instructor is free to say "in order to get attend my school you must forswear all other martial arts, eat only parsley on Tuesdays, and stick your tongue out whenever you see a Kung Fu practitioner." I'm free to say "these are stupid rules and none of that fits with my goals of personal development and living the life I want to live, so I'll be going somewhere else." Of course this means I'll probably miss out on learning the unique techniques of Sillyassrule Parsleyeating Ryu Jujutsu, but I suspect I'll find something else in my studies to compensate.
I've had one Kenpo school out of several I've trained who did have such a rule. I asked him why he had that rule as it didn't make sense to me.
He explained it is a rule of courtesy to what you're learning not to go to other schools. It is also a show of loyalty. He also says it is to minimize confusion while learning as other instructors will not teach the same way.
That rule didn't make sense to me then and still doesn't make sense now. He ran several franchises of his school. Eventually, he changed to rename his style and changed the curriculum to fit the new style. I then left because there were too many changes and political overtones to suit me. Nevertheless, he still is a very good kenpoist (I'd call him an excellent motion-technician).
All other schools I've been to (as well as other martial styles) didn't have this rule, so I'm happy for that.
There were varying reasons during different times of my life that may compel me to change schools, so adhering to such a rule would not have been helpful for my family nor of much benefit to me.
Ceicei
He explained it is a rule of courtesy to what you're learning not to go to other schools. It is also a show of loyalty. He also says it is to minimize confusion while learning as other instructors will not teach the same way.
That rule didn't make sense to me then and still doesn't make sense now. He ran several franchises of his school. Eventually, he changed to rename his style and changed the curriculum to fit the new style. I then left because there were too many changes and political overtones to suit me. Nevertheless, he still is a very good kenpoist (I'd call him an excellent motion-technician).
All other schools I've been to (as well as other martial styles) didn't have this rule, so I'm happy for that.
There were varying reasons during different times of my life that may compel me to change schools, so adhering to such a rule would not have been helpful for my family nor of much benefit to me.
Ceicei
