motivated - how?

[Rodluvan]

Hello sword wielding persons!

I do not practice ant sword art, but I would like to and I will probably begin iaido during this year. For me the motivation is on the spiritual sida. I hope to learn how to reach for perfection and total koncentration. Also I see it as a natural development from and a supplement to my ju-jutsu training which is more on the practical side as all "jutsu" styles should be by definition.

My question is; what is your motivation? Since it's not really a self defence art like most martial arts claime to be it must be something else and I would like to know if I can find some other inspiering angles that I hadn't thought of.

/Rodluvan

 

[arnisador]

I practiced iaido some years ago and loved it--it's the beauty, the precision, and of course the powerful nature of it. It's aesthetics--it's the search for perfection in form.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Rodluvan

Hello sword wielding persons!

My question is; what is your motivation? Since it's not really a self defence art like most martial arts claime to be it must be something else and I would like to know if I can find some other inspiering angles that I hadn't thought of.

/Rodluvan

It's self defence, but probably not as you think it.

I would be very carful to think that your ju-jutsu fits to your Iaido.
Most jujutsu (or jujitsu or jijitsu or juijitsu) don't have the same angle or practing that is done in Iaido.

If you try and patch together two styles just because each has something good, then yourgoing to end up mixing two good dishes that dont nessarily tast good together. You have to be sure they fit together, or they will work against each other.

Most MA styles wouldn't fit to iaido, unless the style is a koryu, or the iaido style is made for the MA.

I don't think you should start unless you are sure it fits your daily practice.

This is only the practical part. Concerning the spiritual part, the argument is a little bit the same, but still, you wont benefit from it unless both styles have this element. And if they don't they work against each other, not together.

/Yari

 

[islandtime]

Originally posted by Rodluvan

Hello sword wielding persons!

My question is; what is your motivation? /Rodluvan

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I have always felt that Iai was a type of Zen discipline.
At least for me it is.
It is mostly done solo and perfection of the technique is left to the practitioner.
There is very little competition in Iai kata and what there is shows that there is quite a lot of variation in the way it is taught and done.
There is a set of kata approved by the ZNKR that is is supposed to be a standard to go by for competition.This is so all styles would know the same sets and be able to compete with each other..BUT as I stated above each Sensei teaches his own variation. So the standardation does not work due to each Sensei adding a little and talking a little away.

I like the solo aspect, the concentration and the quiet of the noto.




Gene Gabel:asian:

 

[Rodluvan]

Hello Yari!

I do not think my ju-jutsu (as we write in Sweden) has very much in common with Iaido, just like you say. I do however hope that the differences is a good think, not a bad, like you seem to think (if I understand you correctly).

You say:
"If you try and patch together two styles just because each has something good, then yourgoing to end up mixing two good dishes that dont nessarily tast good together. You have to be sure they fit together, or they will work against each other."

Im, not sure what the problem is. To me this just sounds like rhetoric to cover up some sort of oppinion. I'm not having the dishes at the same time and I can't see how a good dish one day can messup another good dish the day after (following your logic).

Anyway, if it turnes out that you are right I can easily quit, and no harm is done right? I would be very foolish not to try something just becouse someone believe mixing dishes would be bad.

I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful, but to me your answer really commes of as arrogant, especially towards other styles (except "koryu").

/Rodluvan

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Rodluvan

Hello Yari!

I do not think my ju-jutsu (as we write in Sweden) has very much in common with Iaido, just like you say. I do however hope that the differences is a good think, not a bad, like you seem to think (if I understand you correctly).

You say:
"If you try and patch together two styles just because each has something good, then yourgoing to end up mixing two good dishes that dont nessarily tast good together. You have to be sure they fit together, or they will work against each other."

Im, not sure what the problem is. To me this just sounds like rhetoric to cover up some sort of oppinion. I'm not having the dishes at the same time and I can't see how a good dish one day can messup another good dish the day after (following your logic).

Anyway, if it turnes out that you are right I can easily quit, and no harm is done right? I would be very foolish not to try something just becouse someone believe mixing dishes would be bad.

I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful, but to me your answer really commes of as arrogant, especially towards other styles (except "koryu").

/Rodluvan

'
You are of course allowed to do it.

And yes your are disrespectful, and yes I'm a bit arrogant. And both estem from me praticing MA over 20 years, and doing both iaido, aikido and jujitsu. And I've tried what you have done, and if you want to do the same mistakes my teacher told me I would do. It's OK for me, but then dont ask if you dont want an answer.

Respect"fully"

/Yari

 

[Rodluvan]

Since your 20y in MA has earned you the right to be both arrogant and disrespectful I hope I never learn as much. Anyway I didn't ask wheather or not I should begin practice. I asked what peoples motivation was, hence I didn't ask for such an answer.

Anyway, thanx for the "answer". If you don't care to be a little bit more concrete about what what bad thins I can expect from doing both arts our discussion is over I believe.
/Rodluvan

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Rodluvan

Since your 20y in MA has earned you the right to be both arrogant and disrespectful I hope I never learn as much. Anyway I didn't ask wheather or not I should begin practice. I asked what peoples motivation was, hence I didn't ask for such an answer.

Which is true, but this is a standard problem people want it to fit the answer the aready think they know.

Anyway, thanx for the "answer". If you don't care to be a little bit more concrete about what what bad thins I can expect from doing both arts our discussion is over I believe.
/Rodluvan

You want the discussion to be over because I cant answer to your satasfaction, so be it.

But out of curiosity which school do you practice under in Sweden, and which Iaido federation were you looking at. Mayby the Svenska Budo Forbund, were their iaido is under then kendo section. If so say hi to Johnny from me. He'll know who I am. He comes to denmark to give lessons in Iaido.

/Yari

 

[Blindside]

So I guess my question as a person who does neither iaido or jujutsu is WHY don't they fit together. Assuming the jujutsu form is a traditional japanese one, then why doesn't the iaido fit with it? The unarmed arts and the armed arts of the samurai were supposed to fit together, and these arts are at least descended from those arts. If I learned jujitsu from one ryu and the iai or kenjutsu of another ryu would they no longer fit together?

Has the iaido developed so independently that it no longer fits in with the unarmed arts it orignially complimented?

Just curious,

Lamont

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Blindside

Has the iaido developed so independently that it no longer fits in with the unarmed arts it orignially complimented?

There are several answers here I suppose. One is that iaido is indeed an almost "ceremonial" do art, as opposed to the original iaijutsu. (Some debate whether even iaijutsu was truly used by samurai--whether the no-notice duels we hear discussed were in fact commonplace.) Also there were many styles of iaijutsu and kenjutsu, and many of jujutsu (under various names--koppojutsu, yawarajutsu, etc.) and it wouldn't be clear which should fit to which without some research.

Fundamentally, though: Footwork with a sword is different from footwork without it. Boxing footwork is unlike the wide, stable stances of a wrestler, no?

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by arnisador



There are several answers here I suppose. One is that iaido is indeed an almost "ceremonial" do art, as opposed to the original iaijutsu. (Some debate whether even iaijutsu was truly used by samurai--whether the no-notice duels we hear discussed were in fact commonplace.) Also there were many styles of iaijutsu and kenjutsu, and many of jujutsu (under various names--koppojutsu, yawarajutsu, etc.) and it wouldn't be clear which should fit to which without some research.

Fundamentally, though: Footwork with a sword is different from footwork without it. Boxing footwork is unlike the wide, stable stances of a wrestler, no?

You explained it better than I could. specially the foot work part.
Foot work in iaido is usally the same as in Kendo. Foot "pointing" forwards.

Jujitsu /jujutsu/jiujutsu and the like are for the most, at least when we speak of nothern european art come from more judo arts, very diffirent footwork, or body work (when to flow, or not flow or the like). but of course if the Jujitsu is a based koryu, the chances of it fitting together with the iaido are greater. There are very, very, very few koryu arts in scandinavia. And if you praticing that the chances are great that they have iaido or mental practice in their curiculum(sp).

Now the really "funny" part is that even iaido as the ZNKR promotes, is based on different onl iai styles. So if you've practiced these you'll notice them in the iai series. And then you'll notice the difference between the kata's.

But this is the physical part. There is a mental part. And people think that just because the the school /dojo the attend to doesn't have meditation or some kind of -do, they don't have mental training. But they do, it's just that it's not defined in the school/dojo. No human being can live a life without an ethical/moral aspect in what they do, but a lot of people are not aware of their ehtical/moral aspect, and the same for schools/dojo's. So trying to fit something together , where you don't know what the doko stands for, but trying to fit something that you think you know what stands for, isn't going to work for you, unless your a teacher looking for a "new" way in you practice, and your whole style will change.

OK, now I've started to ramble, and it's because I'm irritated. But I feel very strongly about this; you know... been there, tried it, bought the T-shirt... Even been in a dojo that's trying to do it with no success. We've only got this life, and if I can help some not wast their time, I'll try.

/Yari

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by Yari



It's self defence, but probably not as you think it.

I would be very carful to think that your ju-jutsu fits to your Iaido.
Most jujutsu (or jujitsu or jijitsu or juijitsu) don't have the same angle or practing that is done in Iaido.

If you try and patch together two styles just because each has something good, then yourgoing to end up mixing two good dishes that dont nessarily tast good together. You have to be sure they fit together, or they will work against each other.

Most MA styles wouldn't fit to iaido, unless the style is a koryu, or the iaido style is made for the MA.

I don't think you should start unless you are sure it fits your daily practice.

This is only the practical part. Concerning the spiritual part, the argument is a little bit the same, but still, you wont benefit from it unless both styles have this element. And if they don't they work against each other, not together.

/Yari

Really good answer !!!:asian:

Kimura; teacher and 3 Dan Iaido

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by Rodluvan

Anyway, if it turnes out that you are right I can easily quit, and no harm is done right? I would be very foolish not to try something just becouse someone believe mixing dishes would be bad.


/Rodluvan [/B]

Your are right that you should try it out, as it is really good mental and physical practice. However, what I think Yari is talking about is that trying to reach a harmonius state of mind as Iaido is trying to do, is a bit contradictionary to what the means of JuJutsu is. Ju Jutsu is made for purely self defence, where the opponent is not considered nothing else as a bad person. This is very much different from the idea of Iaido. If you for example practised Aikido you will benefit a lot from Iaido practice.

Maybe the story about the dishes does not fit, as you believe you can eat one thing one day and another the other, where then would you combine the two? Would it be alright to be aggressive one day and harmonious the other?

I have seen in many different Ju Jutsu styles that they incorporate different weapons just for the sake of having katas, but they forget to see where they can benefit directly in their main art. I do not know if it is because they want to appear "japanese" styles or if it is because they think weapon katas look nice.

With my martial art experience I would like to stress that learning just one art a lifetime is hardly enough, learning two you have to be sure that they fit together, or you have a precise purpose of learning the other. If not you will, in my opinion, not learn any of them...

However, I would still encourage you to practice Iaido or other arts that will teach you some spirituality, as this might change your view of what you do when you practice Ju Jutsu.

 

[arnisador]

On the issue of why one might practice iaido, let me recommend an essay by Genshiro Inagaki, the head of Heki Ryu Insai Ha Kyudo (Insai branch of the Heki school of Japanese archery). The essay, Yumi No Kokoro: The Mind Born of Archery, appears in Kyudo: The Way of the Bow by Feliks Hoff. I found parts of it similar to what hears in iaido.

The author states that to practice kyudo merely as ceremony, or merely as "the way of the mind", is to miss at least part of the point, and to say that kyudo is a subset of Zen is also not correct; it "goes in the same direction as Zen, but it is not Zen" and it gives benefits that Zen cannot. One wants more than just a non-ego state of mind, one wants a "mind that is awakened by the Bow" that one uses all day, every day, not just when practicing. He concludes:

The mind that is born from practicing the Bow loves people, loves all things; it makes no distinction between things in and under headen. It lives happily in this world, nothing frightens it; just as it is, its life comes to an end.
So may this mind, this heart, have its way.

(I should point out that this essay was translated first to German, then to English, if I understand correctly.)

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by arnisador




(I should point out that this essay was translated first to German, then to English, if I understand correctly.)

Yes you understood correctly, and have given a good point in quoting this book.

/Yari

 

[tonbo]

I practice iaido solo currently, but was affiliated with a dojo for about a year. At the same time, I was studying and practicing Kenpo karate.

I love the sword arts for their grace, their precision, and the state of mind they require. As has been mentioned, it is quite zen-like in its practice, and requires a great attention to detail, as well as an ability to "quiet" your mind to a suitable degree.

As far as "mixing" styles, or mixing two different dishes.....well....I would say "yes and no". I think you can practice more than one art, if you are trying to balance out aspects of each. My own personal quest was to balance out the "hard" of the karate with the zen-like "soft" of iaido. It worked out quite well for a while, and was quite beneficial.

On the other hand, as the saying goes, "If you try to chase two rabbits, you will catch neither one". I think if you are going to be serious about an art, you need to delve into it fairly exclusively. I couldn't dedicate the amount of time necessary to keep both my iaido and karate "alive", as well as perform my job and keep my family happy. Thus, I had to make a choice--and I went with karate, as that was my first art. However, I still play with iaido, and have incorporated some of the things I learned into my karate practice.

My advice is that if you have your own motivation, then go for it. Follow your heart. If you have the time, then practice both arts, but keep them separate, and give each its own "beginner's mind".....do that, and you can keep motivation for quite some time.....

Peace--