Modern BJJ techniques that come from Jujutsu

[allenjp]

Hey guys, just curious...

Is Sankaku Jime part of the original Jujutsu/Judo repertoire, or was it added later, or recently?

 

[jarrod]

sankaku has been around for a long time, long enough that (IIRC) it was prohibited in judo shiai then brought back once it became popular in bjj. it was usually taught first in it's "inverted" form as an attack against someone on elbows & knees; bjj was unique in teaching it from the guard as a basic technique.

jf

 

[Makalakumu]

I was taught sankaku in judo and jujutsu. This submission has been part of both judo and japanese jujutsu dojos in which I have trained. As Jarrod pointed out, most jukoka tend to be more familiar with the "reverse" form of this technique. This comes from the ease in which it "can" be applied to an opponent when he turtles.

 

[punisher73]

All of the basics in BJJ were in judo. Some of the newer stuff that is derived from the sports applications are not.

 

[frank raud]

sankaku has been around for a long time, long enough that (IIRC) it was prohibited in judo shiai then brought back once it became popular in bjj. it was usually taught first in it's "inverted" form as an attack against someone on elbows & knees; bjj was unique in teaching it from the guard as a basic technique.

jf

I'm curious, any idea when it was prohibited, and when it was re-instated as a legal technique? Or did it just fade from popularity in judo competition? It's not listed as an illegal technique in A_Z of Judo.

 

[Ybot]

The story about where and when the "Triangle Choke" was first used in BJJ can answer your question.

The Triangle is credited to one of Rolls Gracies students.

Early BJJ often taught a guard pass where the person in the closed guard makes enough space to dive one arm inside, then underhook the leg. Then (with one arm in and one out) using the underhooking arm to grab cross collar and stack the opponent and passing around the leg.

This was the basic guard pass, and was often still taught in the Rorion Gracie side as the first pass one learns. Anyway, since this pass was so common while looking for a counter one of Rolls' students came across the triangle in an old Judo book.

The triangle became so sucessful as a counter to the arm in & out pass that the pass (because Rorion still teaches it) is now known as the "Gracie Gift".

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The story about where and when the "Triangle Choke" was first used in BJJ can answer your question.

The Triangle is credited to one of Rolls Gracies students.

Early BJJ often taught a guard pass where the person in the closed guard makes enough space to dive one arm inside, then underhook the leg. Then (with one arm in and one out) using the underhooking arm to grab cross collar and stack the opponent and passing around the leg.

This was the basic guard pass, and was often still taught in the Rorion Gracie side as the first pass one learns. Anyway, since this pass was so common while looking for a counter one of Rolls' students came across the triangle in an old Judo book.

The triangle became so sucessful as a counter to the arm in & out pass that the pass (because Rorion still teaches it) is now known as the "Gracie Gift".

"Tank yoo for de geeft, mah fren"

 

[jarrod]

I'm curious, any idea when it was prohibited, and when it was re-instated as a legal technique? Or did it just fade from popularity in judo competition? It's not listed as an illegal technique in A_Z of Judo.

i'll try to remember to ask my coach, i was thinking it was prohibited in the '60s & reintroduced in the '90s, but i could be remembering the whole thing incorrectly, so don't quote me. i think that some officials had concerns about the triangle being a neck crank, but once it was used so much in bjj with few injuries they brought it back.

jf

 

[Kimura]

i'll try to remember to ask my coach, i was thinking it was prohibited in the '60s & reintroduced in the '90s, but i could be remembering the whole thing incorrectly, so don't quote me. i think that some officials had concerns about the triangle being a neck crank, but once it was used so much in bjj with few injuries they brought it back.

jf

Sankaku Jime was allways legal in Judo. Here's a video of Neil Adams winning in 1983 by Yoko Sankaku Jime.

 

[Tez3]

Sankaku Jime was allways legal in Judo. Here's a video of Neil Adams winning in 1983 by Yoko Sankaku Jime.

Just a sidenote...Neil Adams is still doing seminars here and is still amazingly fast.

 

[allenjp]

The story about where and when the "Triangle Choke" was first used in BJJ can answer your question.

The Triangle is credited to one of Rolls Gracies students.

Early BJJ often taught a guard pass where the person in the closed guard makes enough space to dive one arm inside, then underhook the leg. Then (with one arm in and one out) using the underhooking arm to grab cross collar and stack the opponent and passing around the leg.

This was the basic guard pass, and was often still taught in the Rorion Gracie side as the first pass one learns. Anyway, since this pass was so common while looking for a counter one of Rolls' students came across the triangle in an old Judo book.

The triangle became so sucessful as a counter to the arm in & out pass that the pass (because Rorion still teaches it) is now known as the "Gracie Gift".

OK, so he found it in a Judo book...interesting.

This guard pass is still effective but you have to open the guard first and then you have to keep your elbow in close to your body on the side that is not stacking. We train it this way specifically to defend against the triangle when attempting this guard pass.

 

[jarrod]

OK, so he found it in a Judo book...interesting.

This guard pass is still effective but you have to open the guard first and then you have to keep your elbow in close to your body on the side that is not stacking. We train it this way specifically to defend against the triangle when attempting this guard pass.

there are a couple of modifications that help too. if i'm passing under their right leg i'll drive the back of their knee with my left elbow rather than my shoulder. another way is the drive with your shoulder, but drive against the calf rather than the knee. of course it always helps to keep control of the far leg as well.

jf

 

[Saitama Steve]

Do-jime (The Trunk lock) where you compress your opponent's ribs with your knees and thighs is a judo & jujutsu technique. It is currently banned in competition judo. That's used a lot in BJJ and MMA bouts.

BJJ's Americana/Keylock and the Kimura are both classified as ude-garami in Kodokan judo; Ude-garami (Americana/Keylock) and gyaku ude-garami (Kimura)

Sankaku-gatame is like Sankaku-jime, except using an armbar, rather than a choke. Both are in Kodokan judo and have been for decades.

Neck crank techniques like the Can opener also have their origins in Kodokan Judo. It's now a kinshi-waza (Forbidden technique) that was called kubi-hishigi. The Stocks Sit out neck lock is also called in judo kuzure kesa kubi hishigi (try saying that after a few beers!)

 

[matt.m]

I will start off by saying the following disclaimer*****

I appreciate BJJ as a Traditional martial art. However I am not a fan of MMA as a sport. People watch a contest on tv and think wow if I only learn those set technique I could win and don't go to a traditional school.

BJJ has its origins directly tied to the Kodokan. Consider, Helio Gracie learned directly from someone who was taught by one of Jigoro Kano's best understudies, while training at the kodokan. You can read about GJJ backstory in the forwards of the 3 volume encyclopedia. If it weren't for Kano's understudy teaching this Count someone or another, the name escapes me. The Count learns judo and goes to Brazil when the Japanese were attempting colonization. Helio watches this Count fight in Vale Tudo. He was so impressed he learned judo, the old school way and changed the art around a little and viola Gracie BJJ. No problem with that but when I hear BJJ is better than Judo well, actually they are the same at the roots with different terminologies. I have seen traditional BJJ gyms and the ones I visited were hard core. Great training, core work, etc.

I appreciate the hard core conditioning the MMA guys go through but it is was and always will be a sport that cherry picked a few "Favorite" techniques from assorted TMA's.

One of my judo green belts has dabbled in BJJ. She to used the MMA vonacular before I helped her with terminology.

 

[allenjp]

To Matt M.

Whoa there turbo! Easy on the caffeine! To my knowledge no one on this thread has insulted the Kodokan or said that BJJ was "better" than Judo. If they have it certainly was not my intent when I started the thread. And I didn't even mention MMA. I consider BJJ to be a traditional, self defense art. I have a lot of respect for Judo, and I try as much as I can in my BJJ studies to learn throws and stand up techniques, which in most traditional BJJ schools are still called by their Japanese names. (notice that I titled the thread with Sankaku Jime instead of the triangle choke)

We have a Kodokan BB in our BJJ class and he is our most advanced member. I once asked him what the difference between Judo and BJJ was and his answer was "focus". That's the way I view it. But I do know that BJJ has evolved a little bit form its roots in the Kodokan. So I am looking to see where those roots lie. I know that there are a lot of techniques that have kind of died out in the Kodokan, that are still practiced in BJJ, but it's hard to know which ones. I know that there are very few that are unique to BJJ.

The way I see it, BJJ and Judo are really just two aspects of the old Japanese Jujutsu that have been focused on and refined. Let's not forget that Kano took the "best" techniques from the diffierent Ryuha of Jujutsu to form the Kodokan brand, which was for a long time called "Kano's Jujutsu". He wasn't even the first one to use the term "Judo". Now, Judo represents the Nage Waza, (mostly) and BJJ represents the Ne Waza (mostly). One is not better, they are now just different branches from the same tree.

I think that the Brazilian culture and the idea of the vale tudo fight have a lot more to do with the effectiveness of BJJ techniques than their connection or lack thereof to Judo.

 

[matt.m]

Mis-interpretation my friend. No offence was meant. Sorry if you took it that way. I was speaking more from personal experience than your quote. Even though my Nidan is through the USJA I learned traditional Korean Yudo. The major differece is the footwork and hip placement. But it is all good. As noted: I respect BJJ as a traditional martial art. It's training is hardcore. I have yet to meet a slouch in the art. BTW: There is a very prominent BJJ dojang ran by Rodrigo Vaghi, one of Rickson's 3rd dans. Being an instructor myself I don't care what I can do. It is all about how my students perform and their work ethic. Afterall an instructor is judged on his/her students. Rodrigo in that structure is a great instructor.

I can see your point on different aspects, see O'Sensei Aikido and Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido are quite similiar. Just a bit different on philosophy. I had the pleasure of training the same 25 techniques with a 5th dan in O'Sensei's lineage. Great stuff for a half day seminar of one to one training.

So again, I apologize I had a mountain dew amp and a red bull and didn't read all the posts before commenting. Plus, I was going on more personal experience.

Sorry dude.

To Matt M.

Whoa there turbo! Easy on the caffeine! To my knowledge no one on this thread has insulted the Kodokan or said that BJJ was "better" than Judo. If they have it certainly was not my intent when I started the thread. And I didn't even mention MMA. I consider BJJ to be a traditional, self defense art. I have a lot of respect for Judo, and I try as much as I can in my BJJ studies to learn throws and stand up techniques, which in most traditional BJJ schools are still called by their Japanese names. (notice that I titled the thread with Sankaku Jime instead of the triangle choke)

We have a Kodokan BB in our BJJ class and he is our most advanced member. I once asked him what the difference between Judo and BJJ was and his answer was "focus". That's the way I view it. But I do know that BJJ has evolved a little bit form its roots in the Kodokan. So I am looking to see where those roots lie. I know that there are a lot of techniques that have kind of died out in the Kodokan, that are still practiced in BJJ, but it's hard to know which ones. I know that there are very few that are unique to BJJ.

The way I see it, BJJ and Judo are really just two aspects of the old Japanese Jujutsu that have been focused on and refined. Let's not forget that Kano took the "best" techniques from the diffierent Ryuha of Jujutsu to form the Kodokan brand, which was for a long time called "Kano's Jujutsu". He wasn't even the first one to use the term "Judo". Now, Judo represents the Nage Waza, (mostly) and BJJ represents the Ne Waza (mostly). One is not better, they are now just different branches from the same tree.

I think that the Brazilian culture and the idea of the vale tudo fight have a lot more to do with the effectiveness of BJJ techniques than their connection or lack thereof to Judo.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

The Triangle is credited to one of Rolls Gracies students.

... came across the triangle in an old Judo book.

As far as I know, sankaku is credited to judo master Kyuzo Mifune and the book mentioned above is likely his. Mifune also gets credited with the double leg.

 

[allenjp]

To Matt M.:

To quote you..."it is all good". Sounds like you have great info. Maybe I'll pick your brain again sometime.

 

[Ybot]

As far as I know, sankaku is credited to judo master Kyuzo Mifune and the book mentioned above is likely his. Mifune also gets credited with the double leg.

Very likely, but it is also possible that it could have been another book. Kosen Judo competitions probably produced a number of other newaza focused books. Anyway, I have seen video of Mifune online, and that is easily the most amazing Judo footage I've ever seen.

 

[Saitama Steve]

As far as I know, sankaku is credited to judo master Kyuzo Mifune and the book mentioned above is likely his. Mifune also gets credited with the double leg.

It's also a technique contained in a number of koryu jujutsu schools that pre-date the Kodokan.