Judo to Jujutsu Migration??

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hi all,

Over the years I have seen, and repeatedly have read of on forums like these, that many judoka are moving away from studying Judo to study jujutsu (not BJJ!) saying that they find that "jujutsu has what judo lacks" and that "jujutsu is more applicable in SD". I wonder if anyone has noticed this or if anyone has any views on this. Why do you think Judo practitioners are becoming so disenchanted with the art? What difference is there realy in the techniques, other than perhaps an expanded spectrum of joint locks?

Your views would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

 

[ace]

Ju Jitsu is the mother art
& Judo seems to be verry bound by there Rules.

Also it seems to be easyer to get ranked in Ju Jitsu
{Not BJJ as i've heard it's almost imposiable to get ranked}

I my self have been taking an intrist in Judo
Beacuse of the similaratys to international Ju Jitsu Competion.

Mane differnce is Judo allows no Strikes &
LegLocks. In Judo U can Win By Pin or Throw
in Ju jitsu it is just points

 

[yilisifu]

My guess would be that the judo people may be leaving the ranks due to political problems. Judo is, after all, a sport rather than a self-defense method. I know they've had more than their share of political difficulties over the years.
Jujitsu, on the other hand,is an art based on self-defense rather than sport.

Just my two yen......

 

[ace]

Has also Been practise as a sport By JJIF,USJJF,NYJJI
For Some Time Now.

 

[Aegis]

I started in Judo, trained in it for some years, and once I started training in Jujitsu, realised what I was missing out on. I'm currently training in a (non-sporting) style of Jujutsu, and don't want to switch back.

 

[Abbax8]

Judo, is taught and practiced by many as a sport. However, that does not change the fact that judo was and remains a martial way, with excellant self defense aspects. This is the judo I teach.

Peace
Dennis

 

[redfive]

My first Black Belt was in a Combat Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu. My Teacher often referred to it as Goshin Ryu Jiu Jitsu. It was a more traditional Jitsu in the fact that it had all the strikes and kicks that you find in any other system plus the joint cranks and throws that you would expect to find. True Ju Jitsu was a system that had it all, but over time people disected it and took what they wonted and concentrated on the aspects that they liked. Then you get sytems like Atemi Jistsu, Aki Jitsu and many more. Even Akido came from a JuJistu base. Its all good. Some people stand up and do it, others ground fight with it, but it used to all be one sytem.
For competition purposes judo was formed. leave out the kicks, strikes, fingure locks, and joint cranks and you have Judo. It is and always will be a sport form of Jujitsu. And thats not a bad thing, but anyone who is teaching Judo as self deffense is wrong. It a part of the whole. It would be the same as teaching olimpic wrestling as a combat art or ring boxing as a self deffense without ever taking the gloves off.
I'v had the privilege of training with Wally Jay many times.
He is incredible at both Jujitsu and Judo. And he sad many times that there is a diffrence in the training and the techniques.
Wally has told the story about his Judo team realy doing great when they wore there Judo uniformes, but one day he had them take them off and go shirtless. They tried the same techniques but had difficulty in performing many of the throws and chokes. He then translated the JuJitsu techniques for them.

Jujitsu was first and Judo was second. One sport one not.

Your friend in the Combat Arts, Redfive.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by Abbax8
Judo, is taught and practiced by many as a sport. However, that does not change the fact that judo was and remains a martial way, with excellant self defense aspects. This is the judo I teach.

Exellent point! Judo is so wide ranging as an art that many forget that. Yes we can kick, stirke, joint lock, and do all that, and have done so for a long time. Look beyond "Sport Judo" and see what Kano's true genius was. Learn the ART and SCIENCE of judo, and you'll find it opens oppurtunitys many think are not judokaly (sp?) possible.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by redfive
For competition purposes judo was formed. leave out the kicks, strikes, fingure locks, and joint cranks and you have Judo. It is and always will be a sport form of Jujitsu. And thats not a bad thing, but anyone who is teaching Judo as self deffense is wrong. It a part of the whole. It would be the same as teaching olimpic wrestling as a combat art or ring boxing as a self deffense without ever taking the gloves off.

I think your history of Judo should be updated. Judo was created as a self-defence art almost entirely like Jujitsu, with the strikes and all the other competition illegal techniques left in. Kano wished the art to be complete. However, he made it possible to use Judo in a friendly sparring environment, allowing the practicioners to test their techniques at full power against resisting opponents.

This is what is now seen of Judo. The self-defence side of things has been almost completely forgotten by most instructors I've met.

Anyway, to summarise:

Jujitsu was first and Judo was second. One sport one not.

Jujitsu was indeed first, but both were created as martial arts, not sports. Look around today and you'll find sports jujutsu as well. It doesn't mean that was what the art was created for, it's just what certain instructors have decided would be a good idea.

 

[Aegis]

Oh, and Dennis:

The type of Judo you teach sounds like how it was originally meant to be.

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

Aegis---You said you moved to Jujutsu cause you saw what was missing from your judo. What exactly--any specifics??

And just another thought for you all? I know that all martial arts are complete arts and effective and blah blah blah (not looking to start a flame war ), but what do you think of the combination of Aikido and judo? You essentially have the throws from Judo and the "testing" environment in shiai, and the locks from Aikido. In essence, could this not be considered (VERY loosely) a "home-made" version of jujutsu?

Your views?

 

[Aegis]

I didn't quite say that. I only saw what was missing from Judo after moving to Jujutsu. I saw that Judo was fine for competition work, but generally flawed when it came to self defence application. Jujutsu completes the technique set, adding in blocks, strikes, different styles of takedown banned from Judo compatition, and several more minor sets of techniques.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Judo is fine if taught in its original form, with the self defence aspects intact. But it is mostly taught as nothing but a sport these days, which is a real pity: Judo is a complete art which has true applications in self defence, but is taught more or less entirely in its incomplete form.

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hmmm....thanks Aegis!

At our dojo at our local university, our judo instructor teaches every Monday and Wednesday. On Mondays he teaches self-defense (ie. situation responses..primarily throw orientated) and theory, and on Wednesdays he teaches competition. In essence the two very much compliment each other and work well together..particularly since I'm not very interested in the sport side of Judo (perhaps I'll grow into it...I'm usually a very competitive bugger! )

Thinking of starting Aikido classes on Mondays after Judo and Thursdays. Think the combo of the two could be highly effective.

You feel that there's no need really to go outside of Judo if I'm in it purely for the SD aspect? Surely a throw on the mat is the same on the street?

 

[Astra]

Yeah, if you actually manage to throw your opponent, it hurts. I remember sparring with nearly no rules in a "work-out" practice at the school I study in. He tried a take-down, and I ended up throwing him on his back. That ended the session, as he wanted out after a landing like that(we had gear on, but it shook the hell out of him)

To answer to your post: A throw is a throw on the street(and if done right is very effective), but you have to keep in mind that you're opponent isn't wearing a judo-gi.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Right!! Smash someone's head on the concrete, and a great future lies ahead of you, IN PRISON!

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi
You feel that there's no need really to go outside of Judo if I'm in it purely for the SD aspect? Surely a throw on the mat is the same on the street?

if they teach you how to catch an attck and use a throw from the catch, no. However, most Judo classes teach throws from a standard grip, which you are highly unlikely to manage to get on a real opponent.

 

[redfive]

Per Aegis's suggestion,
I have updated my Judo history. Actualy my knowledge of it was to current, becouse all I have ever seen is sport Judo. Reading about Jigoro Kano and his formation of the Kodokan Judo system, has given me new insight into Judo.
Indeed it was created for a self defense and combat. I also did not realize that it was as young a system as it is, being formed only in the 1800. I thought it was much older.
To bad more people do not know or teach the original form of Judo. And my hats off to those of you who do. And I stand corrected.
If you teach Judo as a self deffense, you are not wrong.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

Aegis, I hear your argument...but surely through shiai and competition you learn to apply your throws in any situation..against a resisiting opponent, where it's not all "ritualized"?

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi
Aegis, I hear your argument...but surely through shiai and competition you learn to apply your throws in any situation..against a resisiting opponent, where it's not all "ritualized"?

I would seriously disagree. You learn to utilise the throws in a one-on-one conflict, wearing thick jackets (made for easy gripping), where you know your opponent isn't going to hit you. You train on mats, so doing a sacrifice throw is possible, while on the streets it's possible that doing so will leave you unable to get away afterwards. You train to know that some techniques are banned for being dangerous, or counter-productive to an interesting fight, so you don't learn to use them.

Another example is in groundwork. In Judo, if the groundfight is going no-where, you are stood up by the referee and restart. It is sometimes taught, therefore, that one of the best ground defences is to get on your front and curl up into a tight ball. Not particularly good tactics in a real fight.

People will say that the street "rules" are different and you can adapt to them, but I disagree. You will do exactly what you have trained repetetively to do. If that happens to be a bad street tactic, then it's quite likely to hurt.

However, I would like to stress that Judo would be of more use on the streets than nothing. The grappling it teaches CAN be altered easily to street-type defences, but requires thought, which slows you down. in Jujitsu, the self-defence methods are taught from the word go, so what you do on the street will be exactly as taught, and providing the school is teaching legitimate self-defence (ie/ techniques which will actually work) you will react faster and do the right thing.

Don't know how well all that came across, but hopefully you see my point.

 

[ace]

As has been stated before he changed the
Rules to suit the Throwers. He took out leg locks
And gave short time in Ne Waza.

This was do to the Fact That Kosen Judo Group
Was dominating the Seen.

And Then Name Judo was Used
Many Years Before Kano Used it.