Modern Arnis for Self Defence not for fighting ?

[Black Grass]

I've seen posts of Rocky Paswik on Eskrima Digest where he says (paraphrase) 'Modern Arnis is a good self defence system but it won't make you a eskrimador' ( a fighter)'. He is not the only one with this opinion, but I paraphrased him because he has posted this publicly and was one of Prof. top students years ago. And with my limited exposure to Modern Arnis 5 or 6 years ago I would tend to agreed (at least back then).

Now I realize that Modern Arnis today is different from the Modern Arnis of Rocky's time ( 80's ?). Its even different from 5 or 6 years ago. But is this a true assessment today? Was it ever true?

Now this doesn't question the Prof. fighting ability or his system, but rather what the goal was and the way he taught the art (especially in the US). Was the system geared towards developing fighters, teaching self defence or both? If you feel both was there a focus.

Look forward to your opinions. Especially from the Renegade.

Black Grass

 

[bloodwood]

I'm sure there are many varied views on this subject but in my opinion and from my own progression following the professor's art, the last 2 to 3 years have been geared more towards fighting with the emergence of the Professor's latest version and push towards tapi-tapi sparing. Prior to that, defense was more the highlight and would lend itself to easy teaching at seminars. It's difficult to teach combat fighting to a large group at a seminar. Also not everyone wants to be a fighter. For the ones that do, you would need to seek out advanced training from some of the Professor's top students who the Professor has shared more of this fighting knowledge with. The Renegade would be one along with some of the Motts.

With the Professor on the road all the time it was difficult to get long term training from him which is required for fighter training. Knowing this limitation on his time led the Professor to introduce Datu Hartman to Balintawak GM Ted Buot for one on one training. This was rare for Remy to do this and a great honor for Datu.
Many students join Modern Arnis for different reasons some for the art, others to feel safer on the streets and some who just like to fight and kick ***. Whatever the reason Modern Arnis has it all.
Datu Hartman's WMAA and the MOTTS offer full service programs that cover the pure art, fighting and even the social aspect, which is where you find out about all these good people. Martial Talk has also bridged the gap by putting everyone in touch and giving no one reason to be out of the loop. :samurai:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I'm not going to mix words on this one. I feel that we were taught all the elements to become good fighters but I think that there are only about 5-10% of us who can fight (outside the Philippines).

Modern Arnis is one of the few Filipino systems that are taught as a complete art, for both self-defense and fighting! Many FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) don't deal with defending themselves. They teach fighter vs. fighter techniques. Many styles don't teach any hand techniques, just stick, sword & knife. These are fall into the same groups as Fencing, Kendo, etc. Good material, but not practical for defending yourself against common types of assault.

Remy saw the need to defend oneself from many different reference points and didn't limit himself to Filipino fighting. The progression starts with being taught concepts that can be applied to common street attacks. The whole time we are being taught techniques that can be applied to stick fighting, but the main emphasis is self-defense. Remy would say "You can't carry your stick with everywhere you because the police will arrest you!" I've been doing Balintawak with GM Ted Buot for over a year now and it is a stick only art. Many of the techniques that I'm taught are the same as the ones the Remy taught me. For those who have done the research, you can see that Remy truly wanted to teach a Balintawak hybrid. This is why he hooked me up with GM Buot!

I think Modern Arnis has all the elements needed for people to be good stick fighters. We have our: angles of attack, striking styles, many ways of blocking and many drills that you will find in other FMA. The reason why I think that there is only about 5-10% (outside the Philippines) who can fight with a stick is that the people as a whole don't train to do it. You can take two Karate schools from the same art. One school may be great at sparring and the other may be better at forms. They are both in the same system but they each train differently. This is what I see in Modern Arnis.

From the beginning, I always did weapons sparring - not the Tapi-Tapi drills, REAL free sparring. I have sparred different ways and with different weapons. Arnisador was with me when I would do this and we traded shots many times. These rules apply to all systems. If you want to be a fighter, you have to train to be one. This is what separates me from most of the Modern Arnis people. I've kicked *** and had mine kicked also. I've fought with and without gear. You have to train to give it and take it!

About 4-6 years ago I was teaching at Tim Murray's in Chicago and we did some WEKAF style sparring at the end. Ken Smith (one of the MOTTs) was participating in the seminar and also did the sparring. He went up against someone who had only started learning Arnis that day. When their round was over, everyone agreed that Ken had his *** handed to him. The art did not fail him, his training did. I'm not saying Ken is a hack, what I'm saying that he like most Modern Arnis people don't train for the fighter vs. fighter encounters. I would also like say that sparring isn't fighting. If there are rules, it's not real! There can only be one rule for reality, SURVIVAL!

I invite ALL the Modern Arnis people to come to my school if they have any questions to my statement. I'm more than happy to spar with anyone, any rules. This is not a challenge, but an invitation to come play, have fun and learn. I'm more that happy to discuss training drills and ideas. I've fought full contact and point with weapons, open hand and grappling. Win, lose or draw I've always learned something. There are no bad arts, it's how you train them.

Remy gave us the tools. It's up to us to use them.


:soapbox:

 

[Mao]

I would agree, for the most part, with Bloodwood and Renegades assesment of modern arnis. Most of what they had to say holds true of many styles. You can learn/ choose to apply the art aspect or the fighting aspect of them. For instance, In aikido many people are drawn to the art because you don't generally get "beat up" so to speak. You CAN get throttled if you choose to train that way. I often rock pretty hard with some of the upper ranks, adding in some less frequently practiced attacks or using alot of intent and follow up to the attacks. When I traind in a bando/jkd blend we "sparred" quite hard. I k.o.'d several guys several times. We agreed in advance, however, that we were going to go hard. I do not always train that way. I almost never train students that way unless they are a little more advanced and I have known them for some time and they ask. When someone gets hit hard in the beginning they often get afraid. Where there is fear, learning is very limited.
Tim, do you think it would have been a better idea to not use Kens name in the interest of keeping the integrity and comradship. Was this intended to be a dig? Thats the way it read.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
Modern Arnis is one of the few Filipino systems that are taught as a complete art, for both self-defense and fighting!

I agree. This is in part a reflection of the Professor's training in judo and karate but in larger part, I believe, of his original desire to make a martial art that would be taught to large numbers of Filipinos in the schools there. In any event it is a complete art in my opinion.

Many FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) don't deal with defending themselves. They teach fighter vs. fighter techniques. Many styles don't teach any hand techniques, just stick, sword & knife.

This was in all likelihood practical self-defense at the time--that is, it covered the cases where one was most likely to be at risk of life or limb. However it has always been the case that warriors, in whatever culture, would study a variety of weapons and non-weapons arts as suited there needs.

I wouldn't want to phrase this as other FMA arts don't concern themselves with self-defense but I do think that the comparison to fencing is accurate. They may not be appropriate for street self-defense. In Modern Arnis however the application to empty hand is always stressed (though sometimes stretched!).

From the beginning, I always did weapons sparring - not the Tapi-Tapi drills, REAL free sparring. I have sparred different ways and with different weapons. Arnisador was with me when I would do this and we traded shots many times.

People thought we were crazy. I remember being disappointed once in Michigan by how many people thought it was a bizarre and unreasonable thing to do. Does no one remember how the Professor learned? It was rather more serious than what we did.

There are no bad arts, it's how you train them.

I can't agree--there are bad arts. Even leaving aside the mongrel arts created in the states by instant grandmasters, I have serious reservations about many of the Korean systems. But in large measure I agree with you. Training makes the biggest difference. I think that's why boxers do so well against martial artists--boxers train hard for hours day, and increase their physical fitness, mental toughness, and ability to take a blow and keep on fighting. That is what separates them, more than a right cross as opposed to a reverse punch.

Remy gave us the tools. It's up to us to use them.

Always a good attitude.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Mao
Tim, do you think it would have been a better idea to not use Kens name in the interest of keeping the integrity and comradship. Was this intended to be a dig? Thats the way it read.

There was no dig intended against Ken. This incident was solely intended to illustrate my point.

However, as far as integrity and comradeship are concerned, was it not Ken Smith at the Michigan Summer Camp this year who refused to shake my hand when I offered it? I was with Paul Dawdy from London, Onatario and Paul O'Grady from Buffalo New York. When we left the room, Dawdy commented that he thought Ken was going to spit on me when I offered my hand, and O'Grady thought he was going to hit me with his stick that he had behind his back. Of course, how else should the chairman of the Ethics Committee of the IMAF,Inc. act? Remember Mao, there are many things that we have discussed in private that I have not made public. If I wanted to make this personal with Kenny, I have much more information to bring to light. But let me restate so there is no question on my intent.

I feel that there is no one in Modern Arnis (outside the Philippines or people who migrated from there) that I feel have the combative skills of Stick Fighting. The exceptions to this would be people who have worked law enforcement agencies, who have had the opportunity for hands-on application of the art, my students and Rocky's group. There may be more people out there who can apply but in general it has been my experience that most people don't train combat and I am willing to put this to the test.

As I stated before, this is not meant as a challenge and by no means am I saying that I am King Supreme. What I am saying is modern arnis as a whole doesn't work combative applications and as one of my goals for the WMAA, we plan to explore this.

:flame:

 

[Mao]

Renegade,
I understand your point. Most people would have understood your point without you putting names to it. I think that in a time when we should all be healing and working together it is inappropriate to air any dirty laundry that was, and should remain in the PAST. Interpersonal disputes should be kept interpersonal. I would rather have all concerned with IMAF,inc. and WMAA be in a reconcilitory mode. The lack of tact shown in your last 2 posts would only serve to make things difficult. It only begins to make the sometimes ugly wheel of politics begin to turn more loudly. Now that there is something public that should be kept private, perhaps we could take this to private e-mail.

 

[GouRonin]

I know Renegade.:erg: He was there for one of my belt gradings and if you don't know what those consist of in American Kenpo they consist of what they call a "Kicking in." Basically you go into a horse stance and they kick you in the stomach. Of the 5 people including my instructor who kicked me in, (1 kick, 1 right cross, 1 heel palm, 1 vibrating heel palm, and 1 backfist) I will tell you that the Renegade:erg: hit me just as hard with a backfist as I have felt from a great many people. He can dish it out with the best of them. There are people on this board who saw it. I had the bruises for weeks. Just as an aside, people have died from being kicked in.

On top of it, when I was working with him at Big Guy's camp I was not going easy on him at all. Renegade:erg: was on the floor learning and banging in an art that wasn't his. He can also take the beating and he doesn't let it stop there. He takes that back to his Arnis. On top of that Mr. Planas has often used Renegade:erg: as a demo partner when showing his mix of filipino and Kenpo knife work. Anyone who knows Mr. Planas knows he doesn't go easy on his demo partner.

Does Arnis work in fighting? I dunno. I know Renegade's :erg: will.

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Mao,
I think you need to step back a moment. I have only made one derogatory comment about Kenny and that was about the Ethics Committee. I was hoping that you would be able to tell the difference. I have been telling that sparring stories for years. Why does it matter to you that I use the name of the person that was involved? If I had substituted his name with Kevin Black, Tim Murray or Jeff Delaney would that have been all right?

As I have told you in the past some of the members thought that YOU where taking a lot of shots at me. The problem with any kind of forum like this is that you can't hear how the words are said. You can't see the facial expression. When I talk about Kenny's sparring experience it was meant at face value. If it was you instead of Kenny, I would have used your name. Maybe everyone has been right when they said that you have been ragging on me a lot lately.

This thread started when Vince (Black Grass) asked for my opinion on this topic. I answered in true Hartman form as I always do. Ask yourself two questions.
1. If Kenny weren't one of the MOTTs would you have cared?
2. If Kenny weren't one of the MOTTs would I have still told the story?


P.S. Vince what the heck is Black Grass???

 

[Mao]

Renegade,
I thought before I spoke. I don't feel the need to step back. Regardless of who's name it was, it wasn't necessary to use names, putting someone else in a bad light. Regardless of who.
If and when I decide to "rag" on you, I'll do it privately if it is meant in anything other than a playful way. As for the "other" members, do they know me like you do. As you said, you can't hear voice inflection. For the Record, in case it isn't clear, If it were ANYONE else, MOTT or not, I would feel the same. Since you can't hear voice inflection, that's why I asked if it was an intentional dig. It seemed as though you were trying to make someone else look bad in order to make yourself look good over a couple of posts. I can usually tell the difference when you post. Knowing the differences of opinion between you and Kenny it sounded rough. I don't mind playing rough, hence my posts. :samurai:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Well it wasn't a dig nor was I trying to promote myself. Yes there is a rough past between Ken and I, but if I was going to take a shot at him I would be up front about it. As you know I'm as subtle as a Bull in a China Shop. I've always said what came to mind first and reworded when needed after.

 

[Mao]

Renegade,
O.K.. Cool. I think we both understand. Your rewording isn't needed with me. I'll just ask you, up front. My goal for myself and my desire for the IMAF,inc. and WMAA is to maintain a good working relationship. You and I have remained friends and shared information when noone else would. I am glad for this. Let's be excellent to each other.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
Regardless of who's name it was, it wasn't necessary to use names, putting someone else in a bad light. Regardless of who.

I must concur with Mao--stating that the person was a current MOTT would have sufficed. Putting a name to the person takes it from a data point concerning the value of training to what could easily be perceived as a personal slight. The truth or falsity of the story--and speaking for myself, I trust Mr. Hartman's perception of this incident without reservation--is irrelevant.

That having been said, the relative youth of the MOTTs combined with the differences between how they were trained on the one hand and how the Professor learned arnis (by whatever name) on the other will continue to be an issue. Any person or group inheriting Modern Arnis has a lot of expectations on their shoulders. Mr. Delaney has been accused of living off the Professor's reputation while not possessing especially noteworthy stick skills, but this has consistently been my perception of Modern Arnis black belts at seminars and camps-the black belts spending much of their time sitting on the sidelines while talking a great game. (Obviously, not without exception.) Rank has been handed out too easily--like candy in some cases--and it shows. An anecdote such as the one related by Mr. Hartman is, I regret to say, not difficult to believe under any circumstances.

 

[bloodwood]

Most students of Modern Arnis and any other martial art style only know what their teacher tells them. Yes there are many who go to seminars outside their organization and do research on their own, but most don't have a clue as to what is going on outside their dojos. This puts the responsibility squarely on the instructors to make sure they present a well rounded program that covers basics to full contact.

I have also seen instructors bring in new students with no prior knowledge of Arnis and start them out on advanced material without ever giving them good basics. I left a former school for this very reason along with a program that lacked substance and diversity. And this was with a so called high-up in the organization instructor. ( I don't want to get started on this subject because smoke will start coming out of my ears and my post would be too long. But I WILL tell this tale at another time because it still bugs me and I'll need to vent sooner or later.) Granted basics aren't going to teach you how to fight but when you are in a fight it's nice to have a good foundation to draw on when you get in a tight spot. Good basics, being familiar with full contact sparing and knowledge make for a good student of Modren Arnis. These are the tools that every student should have and it is up to the Guros to provide it.

Every dojo or training center should not only be a place for training but a source of information as well. Those that hide information from their students do so only out of fear of losing them to a better school or organization. You can't just get up there and mail it in. Too many instructors stop being students when they get their black belt and forget the fact that this is where your training really begins. A black belt only opens doors for you but you have to walk in on your own.:soapbox:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I think the problem in Modern Arnis is that it suffers from monkey see monkey do. Pepole only saw what Remy did in front of them at that moment. If Remy started teaching something else they may think that the old stuff didn't exist anymore.

A big problem I have is that they think that only one person leads the drill. This is wrong! When teaching the drill I lead my students threw the moves. Then I take turns leading. At the end it is a struggle for dominance. As I recall the last time Mao, Whoopass and myself where in Atlanta this very point was talked about.

As I recall Mao was woking with one of the MOTTs, and desided that during tapi tapi he was going for it. As he told me when the drill was done the MOTT started giving him $hit and told him that's not the way to do the drill. Whoop *** then talk to Remy about how to perform the drill and turned out that Mao was right in what he did(this story was told to me by Mao and I may not have remebered exactly the way it was told to me).

I think that the Modern Arnis people on a whole look at the art at face value. It was said that Remy had the biggest following in the world. I think that is because of the number of people who cross train. I think if they checked how many schools did it as there primary art it would be one of the smallest. I have gone to school that teach other FMA as a full time art and sparring is a common thing that takes place in them.

We never saw Remy free spar with the sticks so many people never thought about trying it. I brought soft sticks to camp on two seprate occasions. Only 3 or 4 poeple were willing to try it. Why so few? Because they don't see Remy doing it.

What's the solution? Just Do It!(I hope Nike did see that) Make or buy a set of soft sticks, get a helmet and beat the snot out each other. After you get use to hitting and getting hit pick a move and work on applying it. Don't get frustrated, in time the moves will come.

I asked George Dillman at one of the Big 3 seminars what the most important thing to do in practice was. He said sparring! You can learn all the move you want, but I you can't enter and apply them they don't mean a thing.

Hopefully the may help some people. Ther is an open invitation for poeple to come spar at my school. We will having a stick fighting scrimmage in the future and I will be invite anyone who wants to come and play. When I have a date I will let you all know.

:cheers:

 

[spdmn]

Renegade,

If you are looking for someone to spar for real, you might check out http://www.garimot.com/. I have seen Baet in action, he is pretty damn good.

I also believe Rocky and him has an outstanding fight which for one reason or another it didnt happen.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Last time I was in Florida we were going to get together and bang sticks but work called him out of town. I've met Abon a while ago when did a semonar here in Buffalo. We are both looking forward to train with each other in the future.

:boing2:

 

[Mao]

I agree with the idea that sparring is important. Renegade showed me the soft sticks that he had in Atlanta at a camp. I followed up with the company and ended up buying some myself. As a side, next time I would buy a stiffer pair. The company makes them as stiff as you like. I didn't know this untill I called and ordered more for some students. I use different types of "games" to slowly break in students to sparring. This gets them sort of used to getting hit. Alot depends on the level of the class. As it has been stated, it is important to have a grip on the basics before moving onto more advanced material. I agree. It does seem to help students though, in my experience, if you can show them where they're headed by sprinkling in occasionally a little more advanced material. I think that this stretches them some. It also shows how the basics tie into future material. This is an interesting issue for me because I see how much students like the advanced stuff. I must be careful not to move them along too quickly. I gotta pay attention. This is hard for someone with a short attention span.

 

[Black Grass]

Sparring is the best way to develop timing and distance, something you regardless if you are training for self defence or fighting. I feel you must have some measure of fighting ability to be a good teacher. It doesn't mean that you have to kick everyone's @ss but you should be able to hold you own in sparring.

I think in additon to Renegades statement about 'monkey see monkey do' one thing the Prof. didn't teach here in west (at least I didn't see it) was fighting tatics and strategy. It wasn't until I had a little exposure to Balintawak that I could see the fighting skills in Modern Arnis and how they could be applied. The techniques were there but not the concepts how to use them in fighting. Sparring is another way of learning tactics and stratgey, but since many don't spar in Mondern Arnis this part of the art is lost here in the west with the exception of a few people like the Renegade and those in his organization.

Bloodwood,

I disagree with you that basics won't teach you how to fight! It is often the basics that will win a fight. The Prof would illutrate this point at the camps. The ones I've been to had the Renegade at them. The Prof. would have Renegade do some fancy stuff then BANG! #12 from the Prof. right on the Renegades hand, Renegades would drop his stick from the pain. Done. I think this was lost on the vast majority of people in attendance. The were so caught up in the 'Kool Stuff' like the the Tapi-Tapi drills. I can understand why the Renegade has issues with the 'Art of Tapi-Tapi'. So what if you can trap a guy, if your hit that gets through doesn't hurt him. A concern with training the basics is what is different between how the arts are trained here and in the Philippines.

Regards,
Black Grass


Renegade,

What's Black Grass ? It's my hair it kinda stands up and the people at work said its like a patch of black grass when I walk past there cubicle. Besides Renegade was taken

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Black Grass
I think in additon to Renegades statement about 'monkey see monkey do' one thing the Prof. didn't teach here in west (at least I didn't see it) was fighting tatics and strategy.

I think the monkey see, monkey do comment is very much on target, albeit harsh if taken too literally; I also agree to a certain extent with you about the tactics and strategy. But:

I disagree with you that basics won't teach you how to fight! It is often the basics that will win a fight. The Prof would illutrate this point at the camps. The ones I've been to had the Renegade at them. The Prof. would have Renegade do some fancy stuff then BANG! #12 from the Prof. right on the Renegades hand, Renegades would drop his stick from the pain. Done. I think this was lost on the vast majority of people in attendance.

I agree most strongly. People like to do Tapi-Tapi or of course the stick-on-stick disarms. But how often will you people to do a stick-on-stick disarm in a fight? Not once in a hundred encounters, unlesss you've already got your opponent seriously dazed and confused. The Professor frequently emphasized the fact that what works in stick fights are things like up-and-down, side-to-side, figure 8, and maybe some abanico. Defang the snake with simple strikes that take advantage of the fact that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, which may not be exactly straight in order to get the end of your stick smoothly onto his wrist, forearm, or hand. How often did he tell the story of him notching his stick and just using an up-and-down motion or side-to-side motion to chew up his opponents' hands? I have seen what you describe...I remember one time in particular when he repeatedly insisted that Mr. Hartman go into a fancy twirling demonstration before the Professor and the Professor hit Mr. Hartman's rapidly moving hand time and again by just going up and down, reasoning that Mr. Hartman's hand would cross the stick sooner or later. Mr. Hartman's stick would be moving to fast to follow, the Professor would do a few lazy-looking #12 strikes, then an "OUCH!" from Mr. Hartman, time and again. Simple, simple, simple. The strategy component was there for those who were paying attention, I would say, in partial contradiction to your initial statement--but it wasn't taught as clearly as it needed to be, and in that regard I agree with you.

A concern with training the basics is what is different between how the arts are trained here and in the Philippines.

I would say it's a concern with effectiveness that is trained by that "OUCH!" feedback. That in turn leads to a realization that stick-on-stick disarms are cool and fun but the basics are the techniques that will really disarm your opponent, by disabling his arm.

Lots of people do the sticks for fun. That's fine, but it can lead to a mistaken impression. We get the WuShu version of arnis--flashy and fun but not necessarily effective.