MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[ShotoNoob]

Hey Steve,

Hanzou trained in Shotokan. That is a far cry from what K-man does. Very different on many levels. As explained earlier he also trained in it as a junior which is different than if an adult trained in it. K-man is also an expert at what he does and one of our experts here at MartialTalk in Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Systema and Krav Maga. Hard to compare an expert in his field of experience to someone's experience trained when they were a teenager? (though of course that does not invalidate Hanzou's opinion on Shotokan)

Hanzou is now a BJJ practitioner and that is great. BJJ is awesome and a cornerstone movement of what I do. It has been incorporated around the world because of it's effectiveness. I enjoy Hanzou's view on BJJ and wish to hear a lot more of it. Can he have an opinion on Karate absolutely and specifically on his experience with Shotokan. Absolutely and it is good to hear it. But Shotokan is not all karate. There are distinct differences. In other words you just can't lump everything together and say with total authority one opinion on all the systems of Karate is true.

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Again, these discussions can propel a blog & T.' forever. You're all better writers & conservationists than am I. Yet how about a reasoned conclusion?
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K-Man is an acknowledged expert in traditional karate. He's highly experienced. We all agree. So on the general topic of traditional karate, who is more qualified to state an opinion? K-Man or Hanzou. Well, K_Man. Your statement that K-Man's karate is different on many levels or details that Hanzou's Shotokan style is true. The failing in coming to a reasoned conclusion focusing on differences,,,, is that just finding differences omits the consideration of the commonalities between Goju Ryu and Shotokan. I feel certain base principles of the two styles are common to each. Perhaps others don't. But I would consider just saying Shotokan and Goju Ryu are more different than the same too general to qualify none other than a half truth.
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You say BJJ is "awesome" and has been incorporated around the world because of it's effectiveness. I would add that BJJ is awesome and incorporated around the world because of it's feasibility in training & practicality for application for a wider audience than compared to achieving the same level of effective expertise in Shotokan karate. IOW, to become proficient in Shotokan karate to the level required to defeat the BJJ stylist, it requires greater study, time & dedication to training of a more intensive nature. On that line of thinking, then it makes complete sense for most, particularly MMA competitors, to take up BJJ rather than Shotokan karate.
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Coming to a reasoned conclusion, unfortunately the eclipses ongoing discussions of the same topics over & over. So please continue. I'm generally in K-Man's corner on this one....

 

[Hanzou]

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Again, these discussions can propel a blog & T.' forever. You're all better writers & conservationists than am I. Yet how about a reasoned conclusion?
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K-Man is an acknowledged expert in traditional karate. He's highly experienced. We all agree. So on the general topic of traditional karate, who is more qualified to state an opinion? K-Man or Hanzou. Well, K_Man. Your statement that K-Man's karate is different on many levels or details that Hanzou's Shotokan style is true. The failing in coming to a reasoned conclusion focusing on differences,,,, is that just finding differences omits the consideration of the commonalities between Goju Ryu and Shotokan. I feel certain base principles of the two styles are common to each. Perhaps others don't. But I would consider just saying Shotokan and Goju Ryu are more different than the same too general to qualify none other than a half truth.
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You say BJJ is "awesome" and has been incorporated around the world because of it's effectiveness. I would add that BJJ is awesome and incorporated around the world because of it's feasibility in training & practicality for application for a wider audience than compared to achieving the same level of effective expertise in Shotokan karate. IOW, to become proficient in Shotokan karate to the level required to defeat the BJJ stylist, it requires greater study, time & dedication to training of a more intensive nature. On that line of thinking, then it makes complete sense for most, particularly MMA competitors, to take up BJJ rather than Shotokan karate.
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Coming to a reasoned conclusion, unfortunately the eclipses ongoing discussions of the same topics over & over. So please continue. I'm generally in K-Man's corner on this one....

Since I've taken both disciplines for about an equal amount of time, I'll happily give my viewpoint on why I switched from Karate to Bjj, and stayed there.

My main issue with Shotokan is simple; Its a modern martial art trapped in a traditional mind set. That causes the entire system to be somewhat scatter-brained, and frankly saps away at its effectiveness as a martial system. One of Bjj's greatest strengths (and frankly its biggest advantage over Judo) is its ability to adapt and absorb other styles into its core. This never destroys Bjj as a system, it makes the overall system better. So if a Catch Wrestler comes into a Bjj school, and clowns the entire Bjj gym, the Bjj gym doesn't say that the Catch Wrestler was cheating, or doing something illegal, the Bjj gym would make the Catch Wrestler an instructor of some sort and have him teach the gym Catch Wrestling.

When I started Bjj years ago, my school had a Judo and a wrestling instructor. So you could learn the fundamentals of Bjj, and then learn Judo or Wrestling depending on what your goals were. Bjj had its own takedowns, but learning Judo and Wrestling throws/takedowns simply made you better all around. I would have loved to have the option of taking Boxing or Muay Thai at my Shotokan school, but again due to its traditionalist trappings, that wasn't going to happen.

That openness to different approaches is what makes Bjj so effective. It isn't trapped by the confines of tradition, its free to evolve and adapt to rapid changes of the MA landscape. When karate looks to evolve it attempts to create new moves from its katas instead of looking at approaches from competing styles. That's like saying we already have all the answers, so there's no need to incorporate new methods or approaches. Its backwards religious dogma at its finest.

Why not ditch the traditional kata, and remake them into kata more based around actually fighting similar to what Ashihara and Enshin karate did? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not utilize modern training methods found in boxing or other sports methods in order to improve the output and fighting ability of your students in less time? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not bring in full time instructors from other disciplines to teach your students alongside their karate training? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition.

That's the difference between Bjj and Shotokan. Its also the difference between MMA and TMAs in general.

 

[Drose427]

Since I've taken both disciplines for about an equal amount of time, I'll happily give my viewpoint on why I switched from Karate to Bjj, and stayed there.

My main issue with Shotokan is simple; Its a modern martial art trapped in a traditional mind set. That causes the entire system to be somewhat scatter-brained, and frankly saps away at its effectiveness as a martial system. One of Bjj's greatest strengths (and frankly its biggest advantage over Judo) is its ability to adapt and absorb other styles into its core. This never destroys Bjj as a system, it makes the overall system better. So if a Catch Wrestler comes into a Bjj school, and clowns the entire Bjj gym, the Bjj gym doesn't say that the Catch Wrestler was cheating, or doing something illegal, the Bjj gym would make the Catch Wrestler an instructor of some sort and have him teach the gym Catch Wrestling.

When I started Bjj years ago, my school had a Judo and a wrestling instructor. So you could learn the fundamentals of Bjj, and then learn Judo or Wrestling depending on what your goals were. Bjj had its own takedowns, but learning Judo and Wrestling throws/takedowns simply made you better all around. I would have loved to have the option of taking Boxing or Muay Thai at my Shotokan school, but again due to its traditionalist trappings, that wasn't going to happen.

That openness to different approaches is what makes Bjj so effective. It isn't trapped by the confines of tradition, its free to evolve and adapt to rapid changes of the MA landscape. When karate looks to evolve it attempts to create new moves from its katas instead of looking at approaches from competing styles. That's like saying we already have all the answers, so there's no need to incorporate new methods or approaches. Its backwards religious dogma at its finest.

Why not ditch the traditional kata, and remake them into kata more based around actually fighting similar to what Ashihara and Enshin karate did? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not utilize modern training methods found in boxing or other sports methods in order to improve the output and fighting ability of your students in less time? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not bring in full time instructors from other disciplines to teach your students alongside their karate training? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition.

That's the difference between Bjj and Shotokan. Its also the difference between MMA and TMAs in general.

The onoly thing I did in boxing that I havent seen at the Shotokan school I stop by every now and then, is boxing sparring XD

Footwork, bag work, combination drills, pad drills etc. Are all regularly a part of most TMA's and really always have been XD

You really need to stop using your short time in Shotokan as a means to judge all TMAs, its cringeworthy

 

[Hanzou]

The onoly thing I did in boxing that I havent seen at the Shotokan school I stop by every now and then, is boxing sparring XD

Footwork, bag work, combination drills, pad drills etc. Are all regularly a part of most TMA's and really always have been XD

You really need to stop using your short time in Shotokan as a means to judge all TMAs, its cringeworthy

That probably explains why so many of you look like kickboxers when you spar.

 

[Drose427]

That probably explains why so many of you look like kickboxers when you spar.

L. O. L.

yup....

Not because Karate styles have been oding them long before Kickboxing.........

and that Karate sparring led to the creation of Kickboxing

you're cute

 

[crazydiamond]

It is interesting the article mentions Bruce Lee (the system I study under inosanto) and Bruce having come from TMA of Wing Chun. Arguably one could (and some do) take the approach that Bruce saw the limitations of TMA and formed a MMA approach to his "system with out a system". As a newbie - I train in various forms including boxing, MT, and BJJ as well as some Wing Chun.

I am aware that other forms of "TMA" also include striking, ground work and other forms of fighting - a mixed combat approach. To me these seem like MMA as well.

The discussion (debate ?) I seem to hear (again as a newbie) is not TMA vs MMA - but rather Cage MMA vs Street MMA. Sparing is also involved in both, or is in mine - albeit not hard sparing.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Since I've taken both disciplines for about an equal amount of time, I'll happily give my viewpoint on why I switched from Karate to Bjj, and stayed there.

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The Gracie's did a lot of things right. Just as did Gichin Funakoshi. So I applaud both moves.

My main issue with Shotokan is simple; Its a modern martial art trapped in a traditional mind set. That causes the entire system to be somewhat scatter-brained, and frankly saps away at its effectiveness as a martial system.

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Yep, in a general nutshell, I concur with your simple summary. Shotokan has a number of problems and your overall depiction captures much of the flavor of those problems. Personally, I'll reiterate, I don't like Shotokan and would never practice Shotokan myself. However, for broader reasons, I think Shotokan fits with many in the masses and I would never hesitate to say Shotokan can really be effective if you dig into the principles behind it & of traditional karate (TMU).
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One of Bjj's greatest strengths (and frankly its biggest advantage over Judo) is its ability to adapt and absorb other styles into its core. This never destroys Bjj as a system, it makes the overall system better.

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I'm not versed in the grappling area the way the MT experts & authorities here, so I have to speak from principle alone. I think there is 2 ways to look @ cross training. On the one end of the spectrum is to engage in cross training a lot and gain & incorporate the knowledge & benefits inherent in other MA styles. At the other end of the spectrum is what I do. That is go beyond conventions and common practice of your primary style and dig deeper into the origins & transitions of that style. Such an approach, take Shotokan for instance, would address so many of the shortcomings or abandoned parts of the curriculum. It would focus on concepts, such as the 8 key concepts of Tang Soo Do (a Shotokan deriviative style) which then drive and power the effectiveness of the Shotokan style (a bit of cross-training reference to TSD there).
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In summary, cross training is not the panacea that so many make it. I strongly recommend cross training to expand one's understanding of their primary choosen art & what it's potential is. With reservations, such an approach would address a very large majority of the flaws & shortcomings in Shotokan AS PRACTICED COMMONLY, say certain of the 'modernization' of Shotokan that you speak of. IMO.

So if a Catch Wrestler comes into a Bjj school, and clowns the entire Bjj gym, the Bjj gym doesn't say that the Catch Wrestler was cheating, or doing something illegal, the Bjj gym would make the Catch Wrestler an instructor of some sort and have him teach the gym Catch Wrestling.

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The danger, however, in this approach, is that you lose or dilute or corrupt the essence of the art, say Judo, so that you end up with something that is not longer providing the strengths of traditional Judo art as intended by Jigoro Kano. Change = / = Innovation. Change for the better = innovation. Which character of change is the Catch Wrestler promoting??? $64 dollar question.
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When I started Bjj years ago, my school had a Judo and a wrestling instructor. So you could learn the fundamentals of Bjj, and then learn Judo or Wrestling depending on what your goals were. Bjj had its own takedowns, but learning Judo and Wrestling throws/takedowns simply made you better all around. I would have loved to have the option of taking Boxing or Muay Thai at my Shotokan school, but again due to its traditionalist trappings, that wasn't going to happen.

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Again, see my reply above. And of course your suggested approach may match your personal attributes. To me personally, the value of the presence of the other arts is the reality testing of me, as a Judo practitioner. Let me paint a K-Man-like word picture.
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I'm of average physique. Against the brute who just flattened Rolles Gracie @ KSW31 in May 2015, just a few days ago, I would be pressed to physically stop the opponent's (Mariusz Pudzianowski) forward momentum. I might get run over like a truck hit me. By a main PRINCIPLE of Judo, YIELDING TO FORCE rather than opposing force, i know have an intelligent strategy to apply. I am not just going to be able to manhandle such a brute like wrestling trains me to do. He's too big, heavy & strong. So the question to me is that Judo provides the best grappling strategy in such a case, now how to I implement that technically under Judo principles? K-man lectured me on this very same principle when he advocated Goju Ryu karate--here a perfect application.
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So in other words, If I do Judo really well, If I study, train, and absorb the lessons of Jigoro Kano to a high level of competence, what does Catch Wrestling do for me that really makes a difference? Pudzianowski can rag-doll me; doesn't work the other way around. This is the ultimate practical lesson of TMA, IMO.

That openness to different approaches is what makes Bjj so effective.

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I think the value was captured when the Gracie's designed BJJ. I personally think that's when the openess addressed some of the shortfall in thinking in say Judo, how it became to practiced sport-wise.[/quote]

It isn't trapped by the confines of tradition, its free to evolve and adapt to rapid changes of the MA landscape. When karate looks to evolve it attempts to create new moves from its katas instead of looking at approaches from competing styles. That's like saying we already have all the answers, so there's no need to incorporate new methods or approaches. Its backwards religious dogma at its finest.

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Let me say we could fall into a semantics pit here. I would not say the failure is in tradition. Looking at it from your perspective, I would be less absolute and say the complete failure is not in tradition. So you see how I succeed is embrace the totality of the issue, not fall prey to the existence of fault. The real failure comes in the misinterpretation of tradition. That is how I would frame the global issue. This opens up a complicated & difficult proposition. For traditional karate, is the modern Shotokan interpretation accurate or is Okinawan Goju ryu better or is the Korean Tang Soo Do an improvement over say Shotokan? As problematic as this is, to get at the truth, one must face the global issue in this way. IMHO.
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This is why I personally abhor Shotokan, yet i can intellectually easily embrace, even recommend it.

Why not ditch the traditional kata, and remake them into kata more based around actually fighting similar to what Ashihara and Enshin karate did?

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That is an excellent point. Yet I have even less interest in doing what you say than in practicing Shotokan. At the same time, I can recommend to others what you advocate.
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This takes thinking and I guess by now it's plain I'm a strong thinker. The issue here to me is do we "fix" Shotokan by making it more Ian Abernathy-ized, or do we embrace what traditional Shotokan (and it's maxim's & concepts & principles) has to offer. The latter, IMO, is the best answer. It's not the only answer. the evolved styles you described are also an answer. IMO, Principles eclipse technical sophistication, when it comes to TMA. Not so much for athletics of Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling practice, etc.

Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not utilize modern training methods found in boxing or other sports methods in order to improve the output and fighting ability of your students in less time? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not bring in full time instructors from other disciplines to teach your students alongside their karate training? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition.

The correct answer is not as you've stated, "...because of tradition;" it's because of what tradition provides when trained true to the fundamental principles behind and encapsulated in those traditions.
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Of course this is a massive undertaking compared to the type of athletic training that say a proponent of same such as Matt Thorton advocates. Does Matt Thorton's approach work. Of course it does. Much of his athletic-speak is appealing; IMO doesn't help at all. On balance though, Matt Thorton, IMO, is a traditional athletic trainer with new-stylized marketing packaging. His training works because athletics work. TMA is a very large step up from athletics. There-in lies all the discussion and disagreement, as we see here @ MT. We TMA's are making a very larger, VERY LARGE step up from athletics.
[/quote]That's the difference between Bjj and Shotokan. Its also the difference between MMA and TMAs in general.[/QUOTE]
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NO. People, IMO, are presented with a watershed choice when engaging in martial arts. ONE is the Matt Thorton approach--ATHLETICS. And one good quality of Matt is that he makes no bones about his approach.
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TWO, is the TMA approach, and I use Gichin Funakosi the father of Shotokan as my example. Shotokan is a great learning TMA because it goes into specfics in the curriculum. For concept, my research of Tang Soo Do, provides a better spelling out of Canons, and certain principles. A little CROSS-REFERENCING , if you will. I think it was Hwang Kee, the founder. Or one could pick one or more of the Okinawan Masters of traditional karate. Or one could pick Ip Man or the Shaolin monks. The knowledge of the human potential captured in the teachings of these TMA originators is glacial, massive compared to the sport-based, physical athletic methods or styles.
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There's a link to the general terminology of Tang Soo Do in the Korean arts section of MT. That terminology, IMO describes in overall (and vague) terms, EXACTLY, the difference between TMA & MMA.
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And incidentally, I got called for my disfavor of Greg Jackson, the MMA coach--perhaps the most successful. I also took a look at Ray Longo who is highly credentialed as well as and very highly regarded (I think he trains Chris Weidman). Longo is impressive. Certainly they deserve recognition for their success, particularly in business. But as Chris Parker would say, I believe I'm right when I hold what they do is over-rated compared to the reputation given TMA in the MMA arena.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Why not ditch the traditional kata, and remake them into kata more based around actually fighting similar to what Ashihara and Enshin karate did? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not utilize modern training methods found in boxing or other sports methods in order to improve the output and fighting ability of your students in less time? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not bring in full time instructors from other disciplines to teach your students alongside their karate training? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition.

That's the difference between Bjj and Shotokan. Its also the difference between MMA and TMAs in general.

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The global answer as to why not ditch kata is addressed by understanding what kata is. In a descriptive sense, kata practice is precisely in form, what separates TMA from MMA. Only TMA has kata, hyung, poomse, forms, etc.). Of course the problem then lies with defining what kata is. MT experts here are all over the map, and every where else too.
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MY TMA COACH ANSWER:
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If you are going to train boxing, wrestling, sports, Matt Thorton athletics, you absolutely don't need kata.
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If you are going to train TMA, you SHOULD do kata, but the practice or emphasis on kata is not necessary to become a successful TMA practitioner.
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If you are going to train TMA, and you want the opportunity to tap into the full potential of TMA, then you absolutely must train kata.
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Kata training provides the potential to take you to the highest level of martial capability. Shotokan karate is big on kata. As big as the Okinawan karates styles? NO.
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Yet the lesson gained from training Shotokan kata to their potential benefit is world's above the potential that Greg Jackson Ray Longo, Fredie Roach can provide. That is what I am saying. The Taikyoku kata, the FIRST CAUSE, it's not the super-simpleton down block that leaves your face wide open that matters, it's the perfectly controlled placement of that down block in a strong & tactically advantageous way in potentially guarding the body from low attack) powered by highly developed mental discipline that drives & control the whole body strength together in a coordinated & unified way into that down block as need be, with the whole body aligned behind it and utterly prepared for the next move (advance, reposition-step & punch / counter punch with a straight punch utilizing the same exact precisely mentally controlled process at all times directing the body in a strong & tactically intelligent way, completely synchronized).
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How's that for a run-on sentence?
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The chambered hand opposite the down block (1st 2 Taikyoku kata) is completely prepared to engage the same dynamic and place same into the strike (for training purposes) as I've described above. The purpose of the cambering (multipurpose is to DEVELOP, then engage the mind & body unity, aiding & supplementing the down block dynamic, yet simultaneously positioning the hand & arm & entire body for the next technique preparing & facilitating continuous action (step & straight punch).
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Looking at Shotokan this way.... pretty damn good martial arts.....
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When you are facing me as an opponent, you are not facing some cut & paste-a bunch of techniques guy-regurgitating some gambit done in shadowboxing (or tricky bunaki routine) .... You are looking at a mentally disciplined fighter who can put varying degrees of whole body power into intelligent technique or tactics that can change & adapt in the blink of an eye. This is TMA. Shotokan trained true to principle can give you this.... Certain Other TMA styles probably do it better... they're harder to master....
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EDIT: GOOD LUCK
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[ShotoNoob]

Would I say Gichin Funakoshi who created a popular karate style for the masses, a style the I personally don't like, DUMB? No, I would NOT call the man who stressed the Taikyoku kata dumb. It's quite the opposite.

 

[ShotoNoob]

RELATION TO UFC 187: WEIDMAN - BELFORT.
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Two quick lessons (all breathe a sigh of relief):
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1. Belfort started out doing well in the striking, succumbed to what? GNP. As a striker or MMA fighter, you never want be caught in GNP. No better lesson than the Gracie's gave us.
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2. The MMA striking exhibition by both wasn't anything near the precision TMA exercise I described above.

 

[ShotoNoob]

STEPHEN THOMPSON VS. ROBERT WHITTAKER / UFC 170.
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Here's what I like to see from TMA fighters in MMA. Now "WONDERBOY" IS definately a sport-karate fighter, IMO. Yet how much of his TMA base is in what we see/

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One interesting fact here is that Whittaker is reported to have a black-belt in karate. There's no traditional karate in Whittaker, that I see. Whittaker depends on reactions, the sport MA model. Whittaker, what I see, is not a mentally disciplined fighter. Wide swings that go swoosh.
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To what extent Thompson is an athlete (certainly is), a sport karate fighter (relies on reactions, programmed gambits--YES), has a mentally disciplined TMA base (I would say by observing him, he employs KIME).
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The main difference between Whittaker and Thompson, IM), is Whittaker doesn't exhibit KIME; Thompson's form while extended, exaggerated & certainly departure from ideal traditional form, is very similar to IPPON KUMITE, and his engaging, intent & targeting is plain, suggesting the presence of KIME.
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The difference between MMA conventionally & TMA traditionally is the degree of presence or execution of KIME in competition. Reaction vs. Focus, to decide.
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KIME=an explicitly huge cornerstone of the karate we love to hate, Shotokan.
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EDIT: not to be an MMA blog junkie, but I can feel that straight punch crashing into Whittaker's face through the computer////

 

[drop bear]

L. O. L.

yup....

Not because Karate styles have been oding them long before Kickboxing.........

and that Karate sparring led to the creation of Kickboxing

you're cute

Which is the point made about evolving. Kickboxing is absorbing new concepts. For karate to flourish it needs to as well.

 

[drop bear]

STEPHEN THOMPSON VS. ROBERT WHITTAKER / UFC 170.
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Here's what I like to see from TMA fighters in MMA. Now "WONDERBOY" IS definately a sport-karate fighter, IMO. Yet how much of his TMA base is in what we see/

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One interesting fact here is that Whittaker is reported to have a black-belt in karate. There's no traditional karate in Whittaker, that I see. Whittaker depends on reactions, the sport MA model. Whittaker, what I see, is not a mentally disciplined fighter. Wide swings that go swoosh.
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To what extent Thompson is an athlete (certainly is), a sport karate fighter (relies on reactions, programmed gambits--YES), mentally disciplined (I would say be observing him, he employs KIME).
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The main difference between Whittaker and Thompson, IM), is Whittaker doesn't exhibit KIME; Thompson's form while extended & certainly departure from ideal traditional form, is very similar to IPPON KUMITE, and his intent, engaging & targeting is plain, suggesting the presence of KIME.
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The difference between MMA conventionally & TMA traditionally is the degree of presence or execution of KIME in competition. Reaction vs. Focus, to decide.
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KIME--an explicitly huge cornerstone of the karate we love to hate, Shotokan.

The issue you have is you set This standard of the traditional karate guy. And then wonder why people are using a different method to be successful at fighting.

If your traditional karate method is not represented then it probably doesn't work as dominantly as you believe.

Especially when you have highly trained exponents of the art engaged in that competition.

And swooshing punches are better than tappy tap stuff in a full contact fight.

 

[ShotoNoob]

AND NO, I DON'T NEED A CORNER MAN....

 

[Drose427]

The issue you have is you set This standard of the traditional karate guy. And then wonder why people are using a different method to be successful at fighting.

If your traditional karate method is not represented then it probably doesn't work as dominantly as you believe.

Especially when you have highly trained exponents of the art engaged in that competition.

And swooshing punches are better than tappy tap stuff in a full contact fight.

This problem here, is various styles of karate HAVE been represented very well in MMA and Kickboxing for many many years not.

Heck at UFC 187, Rogan went on and on about how Uriah Hall was fighting "Karate Style" as opposed to the more common MT/ Boxing Style.

And Kickboxing doesnt really need to be explained

 

[drop bear]

This problem here, is various styles of karate HAVE been represented very well in MMA and Kickboxing for many many years not.

Heck at UFC 187, Rogan went on and on about how Uriah Hall was fighting "Karate Style" as opposed to the more common MT/ Boxing Style.

And Kickboxing doesnt really need to be explained

I think you will find that karate with focus on solid basics,alive training,sparring,conditioning and so on is different to shoto noobs karate which is mental clarity and some sort of supernatural ability derived from kata.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The issue you have is you set This standard of the traditional karate guy. And then wonder why people are using a different method to be successful at fighting.

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Traditional karate is hard to do. So people do something easier. Traditional karate is hard to do correctly. So People doing it do it incorrectly, and then like HAnZou, claim it doesn't work.

If your traditional karate method is not represented then it probably doesn't work as dominantly as you believe.

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You mean I have demonstrated it where I train, but not @ Ray Longo's/////
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Longo's personal demo's on YT are very impressive. Only way to beat him is to out-KIME him.....

Especially when you have highly trained exponents of the art engaged in that competition.

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On the contrary, the best TMA's in my area, who actually most train kung fu, spend all their time & effort training for benefit and to develop skill, not getting their head pounded in for 5 rounds like Machida did against Weidman, and then saying I need to evolve. don't me wrong, I love Machida. It's a personal choice on how to expend one's time & energy.

And swooshing punches are better than tappy tap stuff in a full contact fight.

I must have worn K_MAN out, 'cause we getting a little 'fluffy' here.
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I'll put it this way. Can the vast majority of those engaged or interesting in MMA take a break from the heavy bag and a hiatus from the Dana White TUF house in Vegas to crack a Shotokan curriculum text Gichin Funakoshi wise? My view, NO & Double NO. And the Robert Whittaker experience against WONDERBOY's karate base is the outcome.... That is precisely the issue.....
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Incidentally, WONDERBOY 'S next fight is against Jake Ellenberger in JULY? Hope Wonderboy does his training better than the athletics of his open workout against Matt Brown, who gave Wonderboy a BAD beatdown....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think you will find that karate with focus on solid basics,alive training,sparring,conditioning and so on is different to shoto noobs karate which is mental clarity and some sort of supernatural ability derived from kata.

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Come on now, there's MT guys heaping all kinds of praise on kata, excuse me poomse over at the Recent TKD T on the Woman TKD Poomse Champion.....
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And you have MT guys all over the mental clarity concept, so how does one get it? Don't concede to "shotonoob....." I know, I burs-ted the Gracie BJJ over Striker bubble, now the video of Rolles getting "rolled" doesn't work....

 

[drop bear]

AND NO, I DON'T NEED A CORNER MAN....

Because you are not a professional fighter.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Anyway, I gave a ton of material to chew on. Fussing away only solidifies my point about insufficient mental discipline....
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Some of the Matt Thorton "speak" is really entertaining if that's where you guys are headed. Like there is no such thing as an 'advanced technique.' Or real martial arts are 'functional.' He's got great buzzwords he throws out there. Haven't listed to recall.
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Taikyoku kata, UGH, for babies--YEAH. I'm @ Twin Peaks now, give me my cold beer. I deserve cold beer. Don't ask me what I'm thinking, just pay attention to me pretty girl in front of the guys. Pretty please, cold beer.