MMA as self defense

[Chris Parker]

Okay, in reverse order, Lori first:

I have little doubt of that at all, I really wouldn't like to be attacked by someone like that either! But then, I really don't like being attacked at all...

As to if there already exists a system based in prison, well, it has certainly influenced a great number of modern systems, but I don't know of any prison-jutsu, so to speak. But we do look at lessons from prisons ourselves, including lessons on being a "hard target", defences against being shanked, and a fair few more.

Now to Sensible Maniac:

I'll start with Defensive Tactics. Basically, they are simple, principle based programs in order to impart a specific skill-set, with the training based on constant repetition of the principles through a range of applications, and are always focused on gross-motor applications. To give some idea, this is a rather abridged version of a program I'm teaching this month (without giving away our secrets....)

PROGRAM: Knife Against Blunt Weapons

Aim: To give a skill defending against impact weapons (clubs, baseball bats, etc) with a knife or short blade.

This program gives a non-lethal approach, focused on ending the attackers ability to continue an assault.

Principles Used: Double-handed jam high, double-handed jam low, disabling cut downwards, disabling cut upwards, comma-cut.

Program: Jam a strike, then secure and cut to the arm (disabling the weapon hand), then use a comma-cut to the leg to prevent being chased. Escape.

This is used against inside and outside strikes to the head and body, as well as against downward strikes to the head.

Extra Principles: Evasive step backwards, shifting the opponents weapon down and across (clearing an escape path), shifting the opponents weapon up and across (clearing an escape path).

The above program features 8 "techniques", trained two each week over 4 weeks, or in one 2-3 hour long class. At the end, although there is not a real breadth of technique, the practitioner has the skills necessary to defend against a clubbing weapon with a short blade (or similar). This is very much a DefTac Program, and this is the typical way we train one.

When it comes to RBSD approaches, there's quite a few that I like. A good simple one is a spinning drill, in which the practitioner leans over and points to a spot on the ground, then spins around that spot for about 10 or 15 seconds (basically until they are told to stop), at which point they rise, and go through whatever drill you are doing (hit a pad, defend against a grapple, and so on).The dizziness from spinning is very similar to the feeling of being king-hit or suckerpunched, so it's a good thing to get used to it without having to eat punch after punch.

Another is against the wall, where the parctitioner starts with their back facing a wall (about half a foot away), and their eyes closed. Their partner then gives them a solid shove, knocking them back into the wall, and starts punching with whatever has been decided (head, body, whatever), and the practitioner immediately opens their eyes and simply defends. This is then repeated facing side-on to the wall, then facing the wall itself, and the intensity is ramped up as well. These two are designed to get your adrenaline going, and giving you the ability to keep going.

Others are things like a piggy-in-the-middle drill, where the attacks can come from anyone, any direction, with any weapon (ramped up with experience, obviously), such as are found in many Krav Maga schools and Geoff Thompsons Animal Day exercises, as well as "boogey man days" where, during a normal class, one of the students will be the "boogey man" and attack any other member of the class at any time in any way. Obviously these are for our more experienced guys and girls, and can be very confronting.

In my class I try to make it clear that the martial art side has many benefits, but there are very definate reasons that our self defence side of things is quite different. And that is because it has to be.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I have heard countless times that training MMA is conterproductive to good self defense, has anyone else ever heard this or have any studies to back it up, it personally doesn't make sense to me.

I have always believed that if you can hit a trained fighter who is ready for you to hit him you should be able to hit a possibly untrained fighter who may or may not be ready for you.

I personally would much rather have someone on the street attack me then anyone who has ever fought in a pro or semi pro MMA match

There is considerable truth to that.

 

[SensibleManiac]

Just to throw in some perspective.

Yes training actually hitting a target that's resisiting is great for self defense but to put it into perspective:

Some fights in bars that I've seen.

Guy bites off a piece of another guys ear.
Guy hits another guy with a pool cue and barely misses his throat hitting him just below on the collar bone and scrapes off skin as it's deflected off the collar bone.
Guy gets jumped by two guys then outside his friend comes on with a crowbar and messes the two up badly.

What does all this demonstrate?

The street has many more variables involved and weapons usually come into play.
That isn't to say there is nothing effective about MMA, just that it doesn't take in the complete picture of adressing weapons and the variables of the street.

The answer is to learn to avoid violence and understand that if forced to deal with it effectively, you'll need more than what MMA has to offer.

 

[Gruenewald]

I think when you say that no martial art/combative sport is good for self-defense, you have to take into consideration the fact that, at one point in time, they were. The majority of martial arts and fighting systems were in fact created as a means of self-defense against whatever threat happened to face them at the time.

I believe that it is the context within which people today learn martial arts that makes them ineffective as a self-defense system, that is to say as either a competitive sport or merely a means of fitness/perfecting form for the sake of self-improvement and accomplishment. This is mainly because of the various limitations that have been placed upon them over time (with a decreasing emphasis on legitimate self-defense).

 

[Sukerkin]

The answer is to learn to avoid violence and understand that if forced to deal with it effectively, you'll need more than what MMA has to offer.

Quote for truth, as the saying goes, with the part I consider of paramount importance bolded.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Gruenwald,

I think when you say that no martial art/combative sport is good for self-defense, you have to take into consideration the fact that, at one point in time, they were. The majority of martial arts and fighting systems were in fact created as a means of self-defense against whatever threat happened to face them at the time.

Maybe not the best choice of words on my part then. What I meant to get across is that they are not designed for such use, and as such are not actually the optimum way of developing self defence skills. However I did not mean that martial arts/sports cannot be used for self defence training, nor that they have no use for it.

As to the second part here, er, no they weren't. Not one of them.

I believe that it is the context within which people today learn martial arts that makes them ineffective as a self-defense system, that is to say as either a competitive sport or merely a means of fitness/perfecting form for the sake of self-improvement and accomplishment. This is mainly because of the various limitations that have been placed upon them over time (with a decreasing emphasis on legitimate self-defense).

The martial arts have never been about self defence. They are about many things, and can be used for self defence, but to say that they are moving away from it would require that they started there first. For this discussion, see the thread on "Sport relation to self defence". It's covered pretty well (on both sides) there.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I train/instruct in both MMA and Kempo. One of my MMA guys came to a Kempo class. We were working on knives that day. He thought it would be good to shoot in and take me down, while I had a knife. Bad idea, got stab in the throat=dead MMA fighter. We also work/drill against knives or any other type of weapons coming into play while on the ground. I don't see many MMA fighters practicing this. You fight like how you train.

 

[K831]

I don't see many MMA fighters practicing this. You fight like how you train.

This is the part people just don't seem to get. It's about hard wiring that NMM and mindset.

Sure, an MMA guy can be a force on the street, and they are surely more able to handle some SD situations than someone with no training, but to say that MMA should be a first choice for someone wanting to train for SD as a whole is just silly.

 

[Tez3]

I missed this earlier, might address it now...



I personally wouldn't want to be attacked by either!

A little more seriously, you may be underestimating your "someone on the street" a bit there. Just because someone has a fight career (whether amateur or professional) and has learned how to hit doens't make them the most dangerous. A typical attacker on the street is not a street fighter, but what is refered to as a street predator. This person has no compunction about hurting you, is looking just to cause pain and damage, is wanting an easy target, wants to attack with no or minimal risk to themselves, and is usually very experienced at doing just that. Your guy may train to hit people in a ring, this guy just hits people. Not someone to be underestimated, I feel.

Unless you are walking down a Welsh street with a mate and attack two guys in women's clothes, very silly as they were MMA fighters one of whom decked the two guys who attacked them. Video on here somewhere lol!

No you do not fight like you train, if you an idiot who shows off you remain an idiot who shows off and really, confusing all MMA fighters with this idiot isn't good n'est pas? You don't know the other thousands of MMAers out there so can't judge anything other than one idiot.

A great many fighters fight MMA because they can fight legally, a great many of them also fight illegally,as doormen, police officers, soldiers, martial arts instructors even ambulance men and firemen etc, all tend to get attacked and all have good defensive skills.

Please do stop with the MMA bashing and the MMA myths, it is what it is, people can either defend themselves or not, whatever their martial art.

 

[hzulkar]

Well, In my opinion, if you have the basics of how to punch, kick, block, lock and move properly and know how to apply them then you have the basics of how to fight which can be used for self defence. Whether its MMA or TMA or whatever MA, if you have the basics, then it can be used for basic self defense purposes. It depends on how you are able to apply your training in real life and the situation (environment) that you are in and your current condition (either in good shape, or just recovered from diarrhea, or working for 36 hrs straight and on your way home) will affect the outcome. And a bit of luck.

 

[Tez3]

People make far too much fuss about self defence, it should be kept very simple. Simple is hard to do however so people go for complicated which is easy to do and makes far more money for instructors.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Irene,

I feel I'm being misunderstood here, I'll try to clarify if I may.

Unless you are walking down a Welsh street with a mate and attack two guys in women's clothes, very silly as they were MMA fighters one of whom decked the two guys who attacked them. Video on here somewhere lol!

I remember that clip, quite enjoyed it. Very good example of "pick your targets"....

No you do not fight like you train, if you an idiot who shows off you remain an idiot who shows off and really, confusing all MMA fighters with this idiot isn't good n'est pas? You don't know the other thousands of MMAers out there so can't judge anything other than one idiot.

To begin with, yes you do fight the way you train, or more realistically you act the way you train. If you didn't (and fought the way you thought, so to speak), then there would be little reason to train, really!

As to judging, I don't think that's what I have done here, or anywhere. But hopefully I'll be able to clarify that.

A great many fighters fight MMA because they can fight legally, a great many of them also fight illegally,as doormen, police officers, soldiers, martial arts instructors even ambulance men and firemen etc, all tend to get attacked and all have good defensive skills.

None of which is argued at all. One more time, MMA (as with most other martial arts/sports) can provide the mechanics for self defence extremely well,and the training methods can be very useful. But it simply isn't designed for self defence as it's primary aim, that is all.

Please do stop with the MMA bashing and the MMA myths, it is what it is, people can either defend themselves or not, whatever their martial art.

Which is what I've said as well. My point is not that martial arts/sports cannot be used for self defence, but that if your main/only reason for training is self defence, then you will need to recognise that that is not what they are for, and will need to be adapted at the very least.

I personally wouldn't want to be attacked by either!

This was in reference to being attacked by an MMA-trained fighter or a street-predator. Both are dangerous in their own ways, and neither are people I would want to have attack me.

A little more seriously, you may be underestimating your "someone on the street" a bit there.

The MMA fighter has well trained skills, but the street predator has a number of aspects that make them just as dangerous in many ways.

Just because someone has a fight career (whether amateur or professional) and has learned how to hit doens't make them the most dangerous.

Not saying that the MMA guy ins't dangerous, just that being an MMA fighter doesn't necessarily make them dangerous.

A typical attacker on the street is not a street fighter, but what is refered to as a street predator. This person has no compunction about hurting you, is looking just to cause pain and damage, is wanting an easy target, wants to attack with no or minimal risk to themselves, and is usually very experienced at doing just that.

A description of why a street predator is always dangerous (by nature), whereas an MMA fighter may be, or may not be (I personally don't equate MMA with thuggish behaviour, I don't think that people who just want to cause pain and hurt someone would last that long in the training, particularly when up against others that are as skilled, or even more so. But I may just be an idealist there....)

Your guy (the MMA guy in this instance) may train to hit people in a ring, this guy (street predator) just hits people. Not someone to be underestimated, I feel (the street predator).

I hope that helps clear up my position here, and I would hope that you would understand my respect for MMA athletes, as well as pretty much anyone who dedicates themselves to something along these lines.

 

[Tez3]

Chris I should have pointed that judging and fight as you train comment to the poster it was intended for ..kempojutsu. Sorry wasn't intended for you!

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, it's all cool, I actually enjoy these discussions because they allow me to clarify my position to myself as much as to everyone else... so I like the opportunity to do so! Thanks for that!

 

[Tez3]

Ah, it's all cool, I actually enjoy these discussions because they allow me to clarify my position to myself as much as to everyone else... so I like the opportunity to do so! Thanks for that!

No worries mate!

I do get rather annoyed when the example of one person who comes into a club/gym/school is used to show the failings of a particular style. You can't judge anything but what one person does. We had a guy who came in once, a brown belt Judoka, when grappling he actually bit one of our guys! This doesn't mean that Judo is a pants style, just means this guy was an idiot!
The guy who shoots into a knife attack shouldn't be ridiculed, he was either an idiot or he was trying his best and has now learned how to defend against knives but to state that MMAers can't defend themselves because this one guy chose to shoot is vastly unfair. I could show you half a dozen MMAers who could do a perfectly functional safe disarm, doesn't mean all can do it. I can also show you half a dozen maybe more karateka and Judoka who would freeze at the sight of a knife aimed at them, doesn't mean all karateka and judoka will do that. I for one rarely shoot if at all, tends to be a beginners favourite as soon as they learn it.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

With MMA becoming more popular each and every day, the term is starting to become very loose. There are those who train in MMA and use various martial art skills in there teaching. Then there are the ones who use MMA as a sport type of martial art. I have been to at least 6 gyms here in the U.S that teach the sport style and none teach knife defense.

Tez, I wasn't bashing MMA, was using one of my fighters as an example. He trains a certain way and when he was put outside of his enviroment he resorted to his training methods. So that proved my point you fight or react the way you train.

 

[Tez3]

With MMA becoming more popular each and every day, the term is starting to become very loose. There are those who train in MMA and use various martial art skills in there teaching. Then there are the ones who use MMA as a sport type of martial art. I have been to at least 6 gyms here in the U.S that teach the sport style and none teach knife defense.

Tez, I wasn't bashing MMA, was using one of my fighters as an example. He trains a certain way and when he was put outside of his enviroment he resorted to his training methods. So that proved my point you fight or react the way you train.

Sorry I disagree, it proved how he reacted only. if you come to a club here and do the same to an MMA fighter its very unlikely he will shoot in, he/she will do something you recognise as being TMA.

I've said before that here, the term MMA is simply for fighting in the cage/ring, when people train different arts for other reasons we call it cross training, it may sound pendantic but it does save confusion when talking about MMA etc. Again here most MMAers have a TMA background, many are Dan grades so are familiar with knife defences and other stuff so will respond appropriately.
We make sure that any newcomers to our club who haven't done TMA, are taught any self defence techniques that they can use if attacked but we aren't a commercial gym so while we have pro fighters we can also train as we wish.

 

[Chris Parker]

You know, I think it does actually fit with Kempojujutsu's understanding, in that the guy who rushed a knife did so because that is what he had trained as a successful strategy. With your guys, as you say, they are dominantly TMA guys who have trained MMA as well (and have a seperate but integrated self defence training as well), so I would hope that they would respond a little differently... but they would still be responding (fighting) the way they had trained. Kempojujutsu's guy simply didn't have the training background your guys do, but the ideas as to the effects of training on actions stand, on both your parts.

 

[Tez3]

You know, I think it does actually fit with Kempojujutsu's understanding, in that the guy who rushed a knife did so because that is what he had trained as a successful strategy. With your guys, as you say, they are dominantly TMA guys who have trained MMA as well (and have a seperate but integrated self defence training as well), so I would hope that they would respond a little differently... but they would still be responding (fighting) the way they had trained. Kempojujutsu's guy simply didn't have the training background your guys do, but the ideas as to the effects of training on actions stand, on both your parts.

Oooh I hate a man that agrres with everyone

I can see what you mean though, I was trying to say basically don't judge one guys reaction as being everyones.
My and my instructor's TMA art is karate but it's karate as in Jissen karate, self defence against non martial artists as originally conceived by the orginators of karate. There's a good number of people who train this way, for the best example have a look at Iain Abernethy's training.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_5.asp

On Saturday Iain was teaching the Bunkai of Naihanchi and the amount of techniques in there that are used in MMA would probably surprise many. People forget that MMA is martial arts, I think the use of the initials tends to make people overlook the martial arts aspect and they assume its something different, perhaps in America with it's high percentage of wrestlers and its emphasis on wrestling it is a bit different from what we do. There is no reason why MMA techniques and mindset don't make good self defence, it is after all only what you learn in your TMA. Choosing the wrong techniques is possible in any style, choosing too fanciful a technique is also common in any style. Keep it simple!

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I can see that is what you were saying, but that was a different argument to what we were saying (hence me being able to agree with everyone... you don't really hate me, do you? I mean, I'm really very nice.... or so I've managed to lead people to believe....).

We were simply saying that the results of training is that you will follow that training under pressure. That can be positive and useful, or it can be less than ideal. I personally think there are plenty of examples of both. The example given here is one of putting too much trust in something being what it isn't, and buying into the belief that it is effective and useful where it isn't.

As for Iain, I have huge amounts of respect for him (he's actually the cover story of our local MA magazine in the most recent issue, which is one of two reasons I bought it).