Misconceptions about non-contact sparring.

[RTKDCMB]

Halfway across the world?

There's always the internet, makes the world a lot smaller.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The arena of stories.

True stories.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And that is the rub I am just supposed to believe people.

Look you can believe if you want. I will test OK?

Belief goes both ways, you can either believe someone is telling the truth as they see it or you can believe they are lying. If you believe everyone is lying all of the time then no amount of 'proof' will satisfy you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Folks, it's starting to get a little testy in here. Can we dial it back a notch, before someone has to break out the Great Glowing Staff of Admin and whack people upside their virtual heads?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Two good points have been made, 1) that full contact sparring requires more cardio than non-contact sparring and 2) getting hit gives you a good idea of what your pain threshold is. I don't think that either of those are in dispute. The cardio issue is relative one, it depends more upon the level of intensity of the movements than it does on the level of contact, but the level of contact is certainly an issue. Cardio needs to be improved in either case. Grappling and 'rolling' is always contact so it is not really a fair comparison to non-contact sparring. The kind of sparring I do in my training is geared towards self defence and in a self defence situation the aim is to resolve it quickly so cardio is not such a big issue, except in circumstances that require me to run, you do not need to be an extreme athlete to kick someone in the groin. Being fit is better than not being fit.

As for the pain threshold issue, the way around that is to ensure that you have good defenses and to make sure that if you have to hit your attacker that you should only have to hit them once. One of the points I made at the start in;

Misconception #4 - "how do you condition yourself to take a hit to the groin, the throat or the knee? – You can’t, not without damaging something".

Misconception #5 - "wearing protective gear can also give you a false sense of security – getting hit bone on bone is a far cry from getting hit with a glove on your protective gear. Martial artists who only spar with protective gear sometimes get hit in those spots and believe that that they can take a hit there. It’s not the same, getting hit bone on bone hurts a lot more and has a higher shock value."

 

[drop bear]

Two good points have been made, 1) that full contact sparring requires more cardio than non-contact sparring and 2) getting hit gives you a good idea of what your pain threshold is. I don't think that either of those are in dispute. The cardio issue is relative one, it depends more upon the level of intensity of the movements than it does on the level of contact, but the level of contact is certainly an issue. Cardio needs to be improved in either case. Grappling and 'rolling' is always contact so it is not really a fair comparison to non-contact sparring. The kind of sparring I do in my training is geared towards self defence and in a self defence situation the aim is to resolve it quickly so cardio is not such a big issue, except in circumstances that require me to run, you do not need to be an extreme athlete to kick someone in the groin. Being fit is better than not being fit.

As for the pain threshold issue, the way around that is to ensure that you have good defenses and to make sure that if you have to hit your attacker that you should only have to hit them once. One of the points I made at the start in;

Misconception #4 - "how do you condition yourself to take a hit to the groin, the throat or the knee? – You can’t, not without damaging something".

Misconception #5 - "wearing protective gear can also give you a false sense of security – getting hit bone on bone is a far cry from getting hit with a glove on your protective gear. Martial artists who only spar with protective gear sometimes get hit in those spots and believe that that they can take a hit there. It’s not the same, getting hit bone on bone hurts a lot more and has a higher shock value."

Doesn't work.

I can't condition the groin so therefore all contact training serves no purpose?

Same idea with the pads.

You are showing the limits of contact training. Which is fine but then you are using that to link no contact as an alternative.

Non contact does not solve those issues.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Doesn't work.

I can't condition the groin so therefore all contact training serves no purpose?

Same idea with the pads.

You have a real talent for missing the point.

Non contact does not solve those issues.

Neither does full contact, which was the whole point.

 

[ballen0351]

Doesn't work.

I can't condition the groin so therefore all contact training serves no purpose?

Apparently you can condition the groin:vu:

 

[MJS]

To train someone for a fight we would throw a fresh guy at the fighter each minute just to mimic the extra push needed to compete in front of people.

We do this a lot at my dojo, usually either when a tournament is coming up or a belt test. We also do this on testing day as well. My last test, I had to fight 4 times, each lasting 1min-1 1/2min. New people each time, and I only got a short rest in between each fight.

 

[MJS]

And that is the rub I am just supposed to believe people. Or I am being offensive.

Look you can believe if you want. I will test OK?

Please, please tell me you're not falling back on the 'if its not on video, it didn't happen' crap line that gets used repeatedly.

 

[Steve]

I don't know, guys. I see both sides here, but don't agree with either side completely. I think that it ultimately depends upon what your goal is. Why are you training in martial arts? If it's just to get a decent workout, then Tae Bo is just fine. Nothing wrong with it.

But, as your goals change, I think we can all agree that the intensity of the training must also change. If you want to be a professional fighter, then you will need to train for that, which will include a full range of contact from shadow boxing to light sparring to some amount of hard sparring. Whether it's full contact or not, at some point you are stepping into the ring and are executing techniques at full speed and full power against a (hopefully) skilled, resisting opponent.

If your goal is self defense, you will at some point need to train the skills. I get the need for safety equipment and such, but at some point, you just need to have a go and see what happens. Take the training wheels off and experiment. Sparring, regardless of the level of contact, is the lab where you try things out, and it's vital.

Ultimately, regardless of your final intent with your training, you have to take training as close as you can in training, and I don't think that can be done for any martial art if there is never any contact at any point.

 

[Wo Fat]

Before I draw the wrong conclusion ... is it the original poster's contention that if combat sports practitioners (UFC, Strikeforce, Bellator, etc.) trained only non-contact, their performance would be equal to or better than their performance that included full-contact in their training?

 

[ballen0351]

I don't know, guys. I see both sides here, but don't agree with either side completely. I think that it ultimately depends upon what your goal is. Why are you training in martial arts? If it's just to get a decent workout, then Tae Bo is just fine. Nothing wrong with it.

I think your correct about the Goal. Your goals set the type of training you need to do.

But, as your goals change, I think we can all agree that the intensity of the training must also change. If you want to be a professional fighter, then you will need to train for that, which will include a full range of contact from shadow boxing to light sparring to some amount of hard sparring. Whether it's full contact or not, at some point you are stepping into the ring and are executing techniques at full speed and full power against a (hopefully) skilled, resisting opponent.

I agree if your goal is to be a professional fighter then like all sports you need to practice on the field or in the ring

If your goal is self defense, you will at some point need to train the skills. I get the need for safety equipment and such, but at some point, you just need to have a go and see what happens. Take the training wheels off and experiment. Sparring, regardless of the level of contact, is the lab where you try things out, and it's vital.

I disagree here. You don't need "have a go" Non-contact isn't training with training wheels. Its training. I don't spar full contact but I have used my skills on the street. I don't compete in Judo and don't do full speed randori in class but Ive used Judo at work. Its not that I don't like sparing or full speed randori its that I cant afford to get injured in training so in this case the benefits of going full speed or full power are too low to risk it. Esp when my methods of training work fine without it.

Ultimately, regardless of your final intent with your training, you have to take training as close as you can in training, and I don't think that can be done for any martial art if there is never any contact at any point.

Well no martial artist is training Full contact regardless of what they say. You train full contact your going to run out of training partners due to injury very quickly. Also if full contact was the best way then why do we train new people slow and methodical. If that's the best way to learn something then its also the best way to retain it. Repetition is the key. How do I learn to draw my weapon fast and smooth out of a lvl3 holster? By doing it over and over and over.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Apparently you can condition the groin:vu:

Not really because the Gladiator is actually kicking his buttocks. This is a trick and can be taught relatively quickly. You cannot condition yourself to take a shot to your testicles but you can be sure that they kick your ***!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Apparently you can condition the groin:vu:

First of all...ow. There are exceptions to every rule. I think you would be hard pressed to find a second person stupid enough to allow themselves to get kicked in the groin for the 1000's of times it would take to get that kind of conditioning, even if it was real. But if anyone wants to try it, be my guest.

 

[Transk53]

Not really because the Gladiator is actually kicking his buttocks. This is a trick and can be taught relatively quickly. You cannot condition yourself to take a shot to your testicles but you can be sure that they kick your ***!

Guess he maybe now a Eunuch lol

 

[RTKDCMB]

Before I draw the wrong conclusion ... is it the original poster's contention that if combat sports practitioners (UFC, Strikeforce, Bellator, etc.) trained only non-contact, their performance would be equal to or better than their performance that included full-contact in their training?

No because they have to train in the manner in which they compete, they test their art in the arena for which it was designed, the mat or the cage and the training method works well for them that purpose. The art I study is designed for self defence and it can only be properly tested in a self defence situation when it arises, and the training works well for that purpose. My main point is that if I trained full contact then there would be many things I simply could not do safely, even with protective gear. Sparring/training non-contact (and that's not to say we never hit each other) allows me to do those things and still have training partners the next day.

 

[ballen0351]

First of all...ow. There are exceptions to every rule. I think you would be hard pressed to find a second person stupid enough to allow themselves to get kicked in the groin for the 1000's of times it would take to get that kind of conditioning, even if it was real. But if anyone wants to try it, be my guest.

I just thought it was funny

 

[RTKDCMB]

I just thought it was funny

He certainly won't be substance Peeing for a while.

 

[drop bear]

We do this a lot at my dojo, usually either when a tournament is coming up or a belt test. We also do this on testing day as well. My last test, I had to fight 4 times, each lasting 1min-1 1/2min. New people each time, and I only got a short rest in between each fight.

Yeah even helping the guys was tough we were all blowing hard at the end.

We have a kyokashin guy train with us. And they do 20 50 and 100 round fights. I think a minute or a minute thirty. That would be hard work.