Mass Murder And Mental Illness

[billc]

Hmmm...you said...in post #38...

I think you're perfectly entitled to your opinions, but this in particular is a point that I've heard before and I think it's a specious question. The root of it seems to be, if someone wants to kill people, they will kill people. Sure. I get that.

But, how easy we make it and how much damage can be done is something we have some control over. Had Holmes been armed with a machete, I don't think that he would have been able to kill 13 and wound another 50 or so. Even a knife in one hand and a machete in the other, he would have had trouble getting to 70 people. Even Conan the Barbarian, armed with a giant, two handed sword would have had trouble doing that.

AND, if his access to guns was restricted such that he had to resort to blades of some kind, it strengthens the position of gun advocates in that a (presumably sane), lawful gun owner would have a clear upper hand.​

I actually posted from an article...(which you didn't quote in your attack)

BEIJING (AP) -- A teenager killed eight people with a knife and wounded five more in northeast China after falling out with his girlfriend, state media said Thursday.
The teen killed two of her family members and six more people before fleeing, the state-run Legal Daily newspaper said. It reported he was caught but did not describe the circumstances.
The official Xinhua News Agency said the attack took place Wednesday night in Liaoning province. Media said the 17-year-old suspect is from Fushun city and his surname is Li. The attack happened in Yongling town.
Police in Xinbin county, which oversees the town, declined to comment.
Violent crimes are growing more common in China. There was a string of knife attacks against schoolchildren across the country in early 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50.

And then I ended it with a throw away line...hardly making the argument you accuse me of...could even say it was the along the same area you were posting about...Sooo...are you a troll?

Actually, you should probably read your own posts before you comment on the posts of other people...

 

[Steve]

I'm sorry if I have made you feel attacked. Would you please stop stirring the pot? It appears to be intentional, and i understand that this might be fun for you, but it could be viewed as trolling. You can just say no, if you intend to continue. That's your call.


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[billc]

Wow, the non-apology first, and then the implied "would you stop stirring the pot," when my post was little different than yours. Nice.

 

[elder999]

Intentionally muddying the waters with irrelevant, inflammatory posts is trolling, Bill. What does your personal agenda regarding assault weapons have to do with the conversation at hand? No one has said that banning assault weapons would help (or hurt), or even suggested banning guns. We're talking about mental illness, detection of dangerously ill people at the earliest possible moment, and discussing how we can help reduce the number of these attacks that occur.

I have to agree with billi-sob!- lfao: ) he wasn't "muddying the waters," he was making the very real point that any controls on access to firearms in terms of "mental health," aren't going to keep crazies from killing lots of people if they want to. It dovetails quite neatly with what I've been trying to say: I have no adverse mental health history, and I own lots of guns-I've always owned lots of guns, and, while I'll never perpetrate a mass murder, I tend to think that if those who are insisting on increased screening and control for mental health knew one iota of what goes on between my ears on most good days, they'd be appalled at my arsenal, as well as my concealed carry permit-especially since they'd really have no idea how well controlled most of my impulses and tendencies actually are.

As for this:

The thing is and I have made this point in numerous threads... while explosives are regulated, it is super easy to get components to make your own, and all the info on how is available online.. If you think about it... you can get everything you need to blow up a car at a Toys R Us. TOYS R US. And you can't really stop this, I mean, what are we gonna do regulate the crap out of Aluminum Foil and Plastic Coke Bottles?

Part of what I did for the five years after I left the lab (2005-2010) was educate law enforcement, military and medical personnel on recognizing certain things in terms of improvised WMDs. You'd be surprised what a visit to Home Depot can conjure, if you're brave enough. With things like shellac and pesticides, someone can fashion some pretty serious contact nerve agents, and you can buy large enough quantities at Home Depot without attracting undue attention from law enforcement or anyone else. Never mind explosives.Now, some may have thougth it was rhetoiric of some sort when I said this:

No.

I was, for a big chunk of my career, required to have an annual psychological evaluation, along with a more in depth one every five years with my security clearance requalification.

Every time-every time-I was U.S. government certified "sane," and "stable."


I can say-being retired from that kind of work: I am not "sane." I am not "stable."

I don't even know what those words mean. Maybe I'm "stable," but I'm certainly not "sane." Though, of course, you'd be hard-pressed to prove it without some serious revelations on my part-I like white wine with smoked duck, and that's about as "insane" as I'll ever be-on the record. :lol:

Maybe it runs in my family-I won't get into details, but I have some sociopathic tendencies, bordering on psycopathic. While I don't really lack empathy, it's pretty easy for me to shut it off. As a kid, I never killed or tortured pets, but I was a regular murderer-and devourer-of rabbits and squirrels. While it did develop my woodcraft and hunting skills-I have to admit, I really like killing things-including livestock: as November approaches, I look forward not just to hunting, but slaughtering, and not just because it fills our freezer. I also, shamefully, did cause more than a few animals to suffer unduly, experimenting with torture. I found it quite thrilling for a while, but eventually recognized-intellectually-that such behavior was not profitable, and so I abandoned it. That doesn't mean that the impulse or desire isn't present, just that I ignore it, much like, I imagine, an alcoholic-or perhaps more like a dieter with certain foods, or someone with food allergies. In any case, no torture for me-sadly.

I won't even get into fetishes.:lfao:

I was also subjected, as I said, to regular psychiatric examinations, as well as an annual polygraph to maintain my clearance, and ability to have access to and handle Special Nuclear Material, as a condition of my employment at the lab. For nearly a decade, I took the polygraph, and passed-lying my *** off about certain things.

And that's nothing-really. I took a class to beat the polygraph in anticipation of it becoming part of my life.


THis "gentleman" routinely killed people for more than 17 years, with a 9 year hiatus. All the while, he posed as a normal suburban family man. He had a family. He was a Cub Scout leader. He was president of his church's congregation.Before he was apprehended, he was married for nearly 34 years-a marriage that ended in divorce. While his wife may have noted some things about him, she was completely surprised by his secret life, as were his church congregation, his former scouts, their parents, and his coworkers-except, perhaps, those who had contact with him when he worked as a dogcatcher. Rader's an extreme case, when it comes to serial killers being concealed, but there were lots, and lots, and LOTS, of people who knew him who weren't convinced of Ted Bundy's guilt, because he seemed like such a nice, normal, guy.

Point is,"sanity" is easy to fake-easier for some than others, perhaps, but easy enough. I have a good friend whose brother is profoundly schizophrenic, but knows just how to behave in court, or in the presence of law enforcement,and keep from being institutionalized or medicated. In the case of the Aurora shooter, once he decided to perpetrate this act, he'd have made concerted efforts to conceal it. As for this:

I don't know if anyone posted this info. yet, but there was an attempt to deal with this guy...

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingn...er-gunman-was-referred-threat-assessment-team

Well, I did, billi:

Psychiatrist warned university about accused Colorado gunman: report


Ya see, the problem is that you can run around in the opposite sex's clothes, or dye your hair any color, or be homeless, or claim you're a reptiloid from the planet Xanthu, or that you had tea with Jesus just this morning, or that your dog does algebra and designs yachts, and as long as your behavior doesn't represent potential harm to yourself or others, you're "sane"-or, at least sane enough that the law can't really do anything about it-no one can except for you.

Beyond that, though, it's worth pointing out that Holmes had already withdrawn from Uni when the concerns came to light, and there wasn't much they thought they could do about him, and there wasn't enough to contact the cops-who would have probably investigated, but it would have been easy enough for an intelligent fellow like him to conceal his intent from the police.

Sanity is relative, and easy for some to fake.

 

[billc]

I wasn't trying to criticize the university psychiatrist or the system, I wasn't sure that anyone else had posted it. I also do not read all the posts on all the threads so miss a lot of what may be posted on some subjects, the one on the martin shooting has 1500 posts doesn't it. It just shows that even with knowledge of a threat that this guy represented as Elder points out, it is still hard for the system to actually do anything about it. Sometimes sure, but the system is made up of a lot of people, and there are too often too many links to make to catch someone like this before they really come out and do something horrible, and that is for the people who have entered the system, let alone the chinese knife wielder. Of course, we don't know a lot about that guy and wether he was in any treatment in China.

 

[Steve]

Wow, the non-apology first, and then the implied "would you stop stirring the pot," when my post was little different than yours. Nice.

I am truly sorry if I made you feel attacked. That's a sincere apology. My intention wasn't to attack you, and I'm sorry if you felt that way.

And I didn't imply anything. I actually asked you outright to please stop stirring the pot.

Edit: it's cool. When elder and billcihak agree, I must be in the wrong.


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[billc]

Apology accepted. Based on the similarity of our posts, I wasn't stirring the pot, but responding to the actual thread. Just as you did with your post in response to another poster...

For review...

.you said...in post #38...

I think you're perfectly entitled to your opinions, but this in particular is a point that I've heard before and I think it's a specious question. The root of it seems to be, if someone wants to kill people, they will kill people. Sure. I get that.

But, how easy we make it and how much damage can be done is something we have some control over. Had Holmes been armed with a machete, I don't think that he would have been able to kill 13 and wound another 50 or so. Even a knife in one hand and a machete in the other, he would have had trouble getting to 70 people. Even Conan the Barbarian, armed with a giant, two handed sword would have had trouble doing that.

AND, if his access to guns was restricted such that he had to resort to blades of some kind, it strengthens the position of gun advocates in that a (presumably sane), lawful gun owner would have a clear upper hand.​

I actually posted from an article...(which you didn't quote in your attack)

Killers are going to kill, and no matter what you ban or how you try to prevent it, it will always happen...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...08-02-06-05-46


BEIJING (AP) -- A teenager killed eight people with a knife and wounded five more in northeast China after falling out with his girlfriend, state media said Thursday.
The teen killed two of her family members and six more people before fleeing, the state-run Legal Daily newspaper said. It reported he was caught but did not describe the circumstances.
The official Xinhua News Agency said the attack took place Wednesday night in Liaoning province. Media said the 17-year-old suspect is from Fushun city and his surname is Li. The attack happened in Yongling town.
Police in Xinbin county, which oversees the town, declined to comment.
Violent crimes are growing more common in China. There was a string of knife attacks against schoolchildren across the country in early 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50.




And not one "assault" rifle was used. Hmmm...​

Not stirring the pot by any stretch...you just don't like what I post, most times.

I just caught your edit. I have scheduled several Doctor appointments, I fainted at Elder's last post...:angel:

 

[MJS]

@ MJS: I don't think though you can't define mental illness past not fitting the norm of averages. you start with the odd little habit and end up with head banging madness...

And last but not least, as pgsmith has pointed out, the mechanisms to deal with those oddities and abnormalities are not in place. Other countries have a lot better system in place, and money is a huge part of it. The hospitals are there, but the funding isn't and many insurance programs don't cover it (or you incure a penalty in the long run)
I think it is telling that the US has unproportional (IMHO) incidences of this nature compared to much of the rest of the world.

it is a combination of having guns readily available to you as well as a gross misunderstanding and lack of care about the human mind.

And seriously, society in the US is chock full of contradictions that are in itself close to split personality disorder...the expectations projected on the individual are in many cases impossible to fulfill.

You're probably right. Like I said, I'm not a doc, but I'm sure there're varying degrees of illness. Interestingly enough, in todays paper, I'm reading an article about this guy and the Doc who was evaluating him, told the campus Behavioral Eval. and Threat Assessment Team of her concerns, yet nothing was done.

 

[oftheherd1]

You're probably right. Like I said, I'm not a doc, but I'm sure there're varying degrees of illness. Interestingly enough, in todays paper, I'm reading an article about this guy and the Doc who was evaluating him, told the campus Behavioral Eval. and Threat Assessment Team of her concerns, yet nothing was done.

I have been wondering myself if it was ignored or just caught in bureaucratic glue. It is surprising how much colleges and universities will try and keep from the public. They are after all, businesses first. Bad or possibly bad publicity is to be avoided. They might have decided to let him leave quietly.

Of course, his leaving might have been due to her notification.

 

[MJS]

I have been wondering myself if it was ignored or just caught in bureaucratic glue. It is surprising how much colleges and universities will try and keep from the public. They are after all, businesses first. Bad or possibly bad publicity is to be avoided. They might have decided to let him leave quietly.

Of course, his leaving might have been due to her notification.

True. IMO, her not saying anything is akin to a cop seeing 3 armed people run into a bank, and he just keeps driving by. I'd think that as a doc, there would be a duty to act, notify, do something, if they came across something out of the norm.

 

[oftheherd1]

True. IMO, her not saying anything is akin to a cop seeing 3 armed people run into a bank, and he just keeps driving by. I'd think that as a doc, there would be a duty to act, notify, do something, if they came across something out of the norm.

That is usually controlled by the various States. I don't know all the exceptions of all the states, but usually a doctor can disclose confidential information if the patient has threatened to harm theirself or others. Of course, a doctor might find theirself in a situation where they fear the likelyhood of violent future actions, based on experience, or patient demonstrated lack of control, without a specific threat. I don't know what the law is there, but it is possible, that would still be protected without a specific threat. Perhaps some in the mental health field can let us know what is law in their jurisdiction.

But it does impact possible future solutions to the question.

 

[ballen0351]

Had an interesting call last night at work. A man walked into the movies and into the Madagascar 3 showing full of kids and parents. He 1st sat in the front row and started to yell at the screen. He then turned and started to yell at the people in the seats. He walked out and everyone thought it was over. Approx 5 min later he walked back in walked to the front of the room and made a gun shape with his hand and started to "shoot" at the people in the room. Now whats interesting about this guy is just 4 days ago I personally took him to the hospital after he was standing on the side of the road "shootng" cars with his hands. When I talked to him he was 100% grade A prime crazy. He made a fake sword and tried to chop off my head. Said he was the ruler of the universe and wanted to kill 50 children by Sept 5th. When I asked his why Sept 5th he said thats the day the world will end unless he can kill the kids to save the world. He was held for 2 days in the mental ward and then released. Hes again in the mental ward and I guess he will be there a few more days then released. The problem is its extreamly hard to keep people for more then 72 hours. They normally put them on meds they gain better control of themselves and are released and told to stay on the meds which they dont and they go nuts again.
I lost a friend of mine to another frequent guy in and out of the hospital for crazy behavior. It finally ended when he killed two police officers and was sent to jail. He was later killed in jail. He was just released from the hospital the morning he shot the two officers

 

[granfire]

Had an interesting call last night at work. A man walked into the movies and into the Madagascar 3 showing full of kids and parents. He 1st sat in the front row and started to yell at the screen. He then turned and started to yell at the people in the seats. He walked out and everyone thought it was over. Approx 5 min later he walked back in walked to the front of the room and made a gun shape with his hand and started to "shoot" at the people in the room. Now whats interesting about this guy is just 4 days ago I personally took him to the hospital after he was standing on the side of the road "shootng" cars with his hands. When I talked to him he was 100% grade A prime crazy. He made a fake sword and tried to chop off my head. Said he was the ruler of the universe and wanted to kill 50 children by Sept 5th. When I asked his why Sept 5th he said thats the day the world will end unless he can kill the kids to save the world. He was held for 2 days in the mental ward and then released. Hes again in the mental ward and I guess he will be there a few more days then released. The problem is its extreamly hard to keep people for more then 72 hours. They normally put them on meds they gain better control of themselves and are released and told to stay on the meds which they dont and they go nuts again.
I lost a friend of mine to another frequent guy in and out of the hospital for crazy behavior. It finally ended when he killed two police officers and was sent to jail. He was later killed in jail. He was just released from the hospital the morning he shot the two officers

Awesome....
I hope you guys got the 50 body bags on hand when he walks out of the hospital again....
You have not one, but already two examples of why the system fails us.
I don't think there is a reason to assume he won't safe the world by September 5th....

 

[Tgace]

That sort of thing is more common than you want to know....he's right its a revolving door till it becomes a criminal matter.

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[granfire]

That sort of thing is more common than you want to know....he's right its a revolving door till it becomes a criminal matter.

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But they better hope nobody gets hear hear that he was talking about it 2 month prior...

Oh, and nobody in a significant position will pay for it either...Ballen and his crew will take the hit...

 

[ballen0351]

...Ballen and his crew will take the hit...

More then you know the guy that killed my friend and a second officer was just released that morning. The docs said he had homicidal thoughts but they believed he would not act on them. Deputy Schwenz and Ofc Nickerson paid with there lives

 

[Tgace]

There have been times I sent someone to the mental health ward on papers only to deal with them a second time before my shift ended....

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[granfire]

More then you know the guy that killed my friend and a second officer was just released that morning. The docs said he had homicidal thoughts but they believed he would not act on them. Deputy Schwenz and Ofc Nickerson paid with there lives

Breaks my heart because it was so avoidable.

 

[MJS]

Had an interesting call last night at work. A man walked into the movies and into the Madagascar 3 showing full of kids and parents. He 1st sat in the front row and started to yell at the screen. He then turned and started to yell at the people in the seats. He walked out and everyone thought it was over. Approx 5 min later he walked back in walked to the front of the room and made a gun shape with his hand and started to "shoot" at the people in the room. Now whats interesting about this guy is just 4 days ago I personally took him to the hospital after he was standing on the side of the road "shootng" cars with his hands. When I talked to him he was 100% grade A prime crazy. He made a fake sword and tried to chop off my head. Said he was the ruler of the universe and wanted to kill 50 children by Sept 5th. When I asked his why Sept 5th he said thats the day the world will end unless he can kill the kids to save the world. He was held for 2 days in the mental ward and then released. Hes again in the mental ward and I guess he will be there a few more days then released. The problem is its extreamly hard to keep people for more then 72 hours. They normally put them on meds they gain better control of themselves and are released and told to stay on the meds which they dont and they go nuts again.
I lost a friend of mine to another frequent guy in and out of the hospital for crazy behavior. It finally ended when he killed two police officers and was sent to jail. He was later killed in jail. He was just released from the hospital the morning he shot the two officers

Yup, this is the same thing the cops deal with where I work. They transport them to the ER for an eval., and then depending on the situation, the crisis team is called to further eval. 9 times out of 10, like you said, the guy is held for a certain time, then released, then the process repeats.

My question is: When does the guy actually get any real help, or perhaps long term help? IMO, with the revolving door setting we have, it seems like that never happens.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yup, this is the same thing the cops deal with where I work. They transport them to the ER for an eval., and then depending on the situation, the crisis team is called to further eval. 9 times out of 10, like you said, the guy is held for a certain time, then released, then the process repeats.

I recall a very specific situation that occurred at a major metropolitan PD where I was taking 911 calls and doing radio dispatch. We got a disturbance call at an apartment. Upon contact with the party who was creating the disturbance, the responding officers immediately thought a crime had been committed. The party was a middle-aged male, wearing a woman's nighty, smeared from head to toe with blood and excrement. His apartment was knee-deep in trash, and he claimed he had killed his mother (and was wearing her nightie). We rolled a bunch of officers and they had to go through his apartment, literally shoveling trash up off the floor to try to find a body.

Turned out his mother had died recently of natural causes, he had lived with her all his life and had mental issues as well as a drug and alcohol problem (these things often go hand-in-hand). No crime had been committed except the noise disturbance. The blood and excrement was due to the man giving himself violent enemas with chocolate bars (no, I am not kidding).

Based on the damage he had done to himself, the officers decided to have him transported to the local hospital, where they got him stitched up and asked for a 72 hour psych hold. This was on a Saturday.

On Sunday morning, I took a call from one of his neighbors that he was raising cane again. We rolled a pair of officers out and he didn't answer his door. Got the landlord to let them in and found the guy unconscious on the floor, core zero. We rolled EMT and fire and they transported him, but he was DOA. Drug overdose was the official cause.

Why was he back in his apartment a day later, after he had been on a 72 hour hold? Because he was evaluated and found not to be a danger to himself or others. Clearly not correct, but I don't know how he comported himself in the hospital or what they did to make this determination. I just know the results.

My question is: When does the guy actually get any real help, or perhaps long term help? IMO, with the revolving door setting we have, it seems like that never happens.

I think there are a lot of reasons. Not least of which is that the severely mentally ill often do not think they are mentally ill, and will refuse any treatment and fight any involuntary confinement. They will not take meds, they won't go to therapy. And there is no legal means to compel them until and unless they cross certain thresholds.