Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

 

[Anarax]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

Mastering and proficiency aren't the same thing. If you have mastered it you are more than proficient, but proficiency isn't mastering. It's the teacher and quality of training that makes the difference, not so much the system. Krav Maga is a self defense system, thus it will have fewer techniques than a lot of other Traditional systems. Krav Maga will teach you how to deal with mostly untrained people using wild techniques, not so much against the trained. Horse stance is a training stance, not a fighting stance. You can't say X style is inferior to Y style. It would be as ridiculous if I compared a well trained Karateka against a poorly trained Muay Thai student and said Karate is better. I've sparred Krav Maga students that didn't know what to do when I threw combinations and I've had Muay Thai students that telegraphed every move. That's not to say all students from those systems do that, only that those particular students did. I don't jump to the conclusion and say all krav maga and Muay Thai students are poorly trained.

 

[MA_Student]

Yes life is more than fighting which is why not everyone trains to fight

 

[drop bear]

You generally won't find a pro fighter with under 10 years of experience. So not really

And people do train a lot of stuff that don't really help them fight sometimes.

 

[Buka]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You generally won't find a pro fighter with under 10 years of experience. So not really

And people do train a lot of stuff that don't really help them fight sometimes.

That last part is key - I firmly believe most martial arts contain stuff for people like me, so we can continue to train after we reach some reasonable competency with the core techniques. After that point, especially as I age, I need something to chew on and dig deeper into. I think there's a very slight improvement (if any) in my ability to defend myself when I get better at some of these things, but they are fun to learn, and they keep me active in my training. So, the real "fight prep" value of them is that they keep me coming back, so I don't get rusty. Wait, I think I just argued myself into disagreeing. Damnit!

 

[FighterTwister]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

Like I have said a few times in this Forum, first that all martial arts is fighting but its more about the the person not the style.

Like Bruce Lee said styles separate men, some just practice martial arts for the love of the art form or style others practice the same art form for the love of fighting meaning how its practically used not actually getting into criminal activity is what I mean.

So both are needed meaning that there needs to be people keeping alive all the martial arts in this list - List of martial arts - Wikipedia .................there needs to be people sticking to one art form and mastering it to perfect, we also need people learning different things from each martial art form and we all need practitioners or students that can learn slowly and/or progress instinctively quick through all the stages and represent that style proficiently.

Question is how you express your martial art, how you master it, also how you train in it, as well as how you represent it!

This could take a life time, or 12 months for people because of the way they approach it or embrace it mentally, emotionally and physically.

Its about understanding self, being self aware of your ability without sounding to spiritual or some kind of guru, its really not that hard to understand this in these simple terms.

I have so much to say on this and other subjects that are daily pointed out in this Forum alone but I try to keep it short and simple and thats really hard for me, honestly speaking

There is allot of nonsense said about what is martial arts and the many forms or what they are about.

I cant be bothered demystifying all the grey areas and how people perceive different things from one truth but only to say that is more about the individual in every aspect when talking martial arts.

Its like Pizza for example originally it was one particular form and recipe now you can even get spaghetti and sausage put into it, again see how someone perceives it to be, how someone makes their own recipe or interpretation or how they represent what Pizza is and so on.


Its always about the person Martial Arts is essentially a fighting sport an activity or art form in any style interpreted, represented and expressed by the practitioner and its path is what you make of it in a short term or long term experience.

Another example some say boxing will take you 10 years to master yet when you look at someone pro like Mike Tyson he was already fighting in the Junior Olympics at an early age due to his natural ability and embrace for boxing as his main focus just to make a quick example.

As for me I'm now a student of Jeet Kune Do and practice that as my chosen art form from a love of fighting concept not actually doing so.

I accept all that Bruce Lee taught in his scientific, philosophical and practical approach to show the world his expression for what he saw as martial arts and how others have taken, expressed, followed it through, or interpretations. For some they grasp this slowly for me I have grasped it very quickly because its a perfect match for my body types and the way I express martial arts as my passion and love for it.

I hope I have shed some light on the subject well this is my opinion sure others will have their own but this is my journey and my interest others have their own journey and interest and how it works into there life.

 

[FighterTwister]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

Like I have said a few times in this Forum, first that all martial arts is fighting but its more about the the person not the style.

Like Bruce Lee said - "Styles separate men", some just practice martial arts for the love of the art form or style others practice the same art form for the love of fighting meaning how its practically used not actually getting into criminal activity is what I mean.

So both are needed meaning that there needs to be people keeping alive all the martial arts in this list - List of martial arts - Wikipedia .................there needs to be people sticking to one art form and mastering it to perfection. We also need people learning different things from each martial art form and we all need practitioners or students that can learn slowly and/or progress instinctively quick through all the stages and represent that style proficiently.

Question is how you express your martial art, how you master it, also how you train in it, as well as how you represent it!

This could take a life time, or 12 months for people because of the way they approach it or embrace it mentally, emotionally and physically.

Its about understanding self, being self aware of your ability without sounding to spiritual or some kind of guru, its really not that hard to understand this in these simple terms.

I have so much to say on this and other subjects that are daily pointed out in this Forum alone but I either chose not to or post a reply or try to keep it short and simple and thats really hard for me, honestly speaking.

There is allot of nonsense said about what is martial arts and the many forms or what they are about and the many debates and politics of how is who and origins.

I cant be bothered demystifying all the grey areas and how people perceive different things from one truth but only to say that is more about the individual in every aspect when talking martial arts.

Its like Pizza for example originally it was one particular form and recipe now you can even get spaghetti and sausage put into it, again see how someone perceives it to be, how someone makes their own recipe or interpretation or how they represent what Pizza is as to how they do it and so on.

Its always about the person Martial Arts is essentially a fighting sport an activity or art form in any style interpreted, represented and expressed by the practitioner and its path is what you make of it in a short term or long term experience.

Another example some say boxing will take you 10 years to master yet when you look at someone pro like Mike Tyson he was already fighting in the Junior Olympics at an early age due to his natural ability and embrace for boxing as his main focus just to make a quick example.

As for me I'm now a student of Jeet Kune Do and practice that as my chosen art form from a love of fighting concept not actually doing so.

I accept all that Bruce Lee taught in his scientific, philosophical and practical approach to show the world his expression for what he saw as martial arts and how others have taken, expressed, followed it through, or interpretations. For some they grasp this slowly for me I have grasped it very quickly because its a perfect match for my body types and the way I express martial arts as my passion and love for it.

Well I hope I have shed some light on the subject well this is my opinion sure others will have their own but this is my journey and my interest others have their own journey and interest and how it works into there life.

 

[FighterTwister]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

Like I have said a few times in this Forum, first that all martial arts is fighting but its more about the the person not the style.

Like Bruce Lee said - "Styles separate men", some just practice martial arts for the love of the art form or style others practice the same art form for the love of fighting meaning how its practically used not actually getting into criminal activity is what I mean.

So both are needed meaning that there needs to be people keeping alive all the martial arts in this list - List of martial arts - Wikipedia .................there needs to be people sticking to one art form and mastering it to perfection. We also need people learning different things from each martial art form and we all need practitioners or students that can learn slowly and/or progress instinctively quick through all the stages and represent that style proficiently.

Question is how you express your martial art, how you master it, also how you train in it, as well as how you represent it!

This could take a life time, or 12 months for people because of the way they approach it or embrace it mentally, emotionally and physically.

Its about understanding self, being self aware of your ability without sounding to spiritual or some kind of guru, its really not that hard to understand this in these simple terms.

I have so much to say on this and other subjects that are daily pointed out in this Forum alone but I either chose not to or post a reply or try to keep it short and simple and thats really hard for me, honestly speaking.

There is allot of nonsense said about what is martial arts and the many forms or what they are about and the many debates and politics of how its done or who is who and its origins etc.......

I can't be bothered demystifying all the grey areas and how people perceive different things from one truth but only to say that is more about the individual in every aspect when talking martial arts.

Its like Pizza for example originally it was one particular form and recipe now you can even get spaghetti and sausage put into it, again see how someone perceives it to be, how someone makes their own recipe or interpretation or how they represent what Pizza is as to how they do it and so on.

Its always about the person Martial Arts is essentially a fighting sport an activity or art form in any style interpreted, represented and expressed by the practitioner and its path is what you make of it in a short term or long term experience.

Another example some say boxing will take you 10 years to master yet when you look at someone pro like Mike Tyson he was already fighting in the Junior Olympics at an early age due to his natural ability and embrace for boxing as his main focus just to make a quick example.

As for me I'm now a student of Jeet Kune Do and practice that as my chosen art form from a love of a fighting concept without not actually getting into fights and beating people up, its more a passion and a respect for the art from a perspective of thinking.

I accept all that Bruce Lee taught in his scientific, philosophical and practical approach to show the world his expression for what he saw as martial arts and how others have taken, expressed, followed it through, or interpretations. For some they grasp this slowly for me I have grasped it very quickly because its a perfect match for my body types and the way I express martial arts as my passion and love for it.

Well I hope I have shed some light on the subject well this is my opinion sure others will have their own but this is my journey and my interest others have their own journey and interest and how it works into there life.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If you want only to learn to fight, that can be done in a relatively short period of time. If you want something more, it may take longer.

Like learning a language. Anyone can learn to ask where the bathroom is, and if that's all you need, great. If you want to write a novel in that language, it may take longer to learn what you need to know.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

Highly respected is good. But is that the goal?

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Actually, not to be rude, but you don't 'get' anything.

Your comments indicate that you see martial arts as good for one thing - fighting. It is good for that, certainly. But that is not necessarily all it is good for. Your comments indicate that you 'get' that the only other thing it might be good for would be "authentic tradition," which you then deride.

So what is martial arts for?

Wrong question. I can't speak for anyone else, but I study karate-do. A 'do' is a way, as in a way of life. I don't do it 'for' anything; I do it because it is part of my life.

In Japan, a 'do' can be many things, from flower arranging to tea making to calligraphy. People devote their lives to it. But surely, one might argue, you can learn to stick flowers in a pot in a short period of time. I know florists who learned in a couple weeks, right? So what's the point of wasting their entire lives learning to do it in a particular way, or to support a particular ethic? I have a calligraphy font on my computer, what's the point of wasting your life learning to make letters on paper with ink and brush? How is one letter better or worse than another letter made using a laser printer?

The point here is that no, you do not 'get' it. With all due respect, you don't understand much at all about traditional martial arts. You don't even understand enough to be critical in an intelligent manner.

Comments?

See above.

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

No, you are actually speaking from a place of extreme ignorance.

What you 'feel' is your subjective opinion. Your prerogative; we all get to have opinions, but your denigration of generations of karateka who have devoted their lives to something you clearly do not understand doesn't stand you in good stead in *my* opinion.

 

[jobo]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

we have,done this before, no it really shouldn't, if you are talking about an ability to fight to a good standard, but karate doesn't measure its self on an ability to put people on the floor quickly, it measures its self on an ability to master perfect form on a seemingly infinite number of techniques, you master 50 in q,couple of years and find out there are another 1000 to go. And that does indeed take,decades to do.
its like a dancer trying to learn every dance that's ever been recorded, they can be said to be,a good dancer when they have a dozen under their belt, but lots more to go before they,are a master of dance.

with that as the end goal, there seems no rush to get you to being a,competent fighter and the training methodology is to go very slowly to completely master a few things, rather than turn you into a killing machine in 2years who is quite good ata limited amount of thing

if you cut out all the flim flam and,simplified karate down to the dozen most effective techniques, a bit like MT and just taught them, then an individual would progress at more or less the same speed as they would if they took up MT.

if you want to be,able to fight well and quickly, then karate is probably not the,discipline for you. If you want life long development of mind and body that has little to do with actually fighting then it is

 

[Balrog]

If you want only to learn to fight, that can be done in a relatively short period of time. If you want something more, it may take longer.

Like learning a language. Anyone can learn to ask where the bathroom is, and if that's all you need, great. If you want to write a novel in that language, it may take longer to learn what you need to know.

That's a very good analogy.

 

[CB Jones]

Axiom??

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Highly respected . . . .

I didn't say highly respected. I said highly regarded.

What you 'feel' is your subjective opinion. Your prerogative; we all get to have opinions, but your denigration of generations of karateka who have devoted their lives to something you clearly do not understand doesn't stand you in good stead in *my* opinion.

This sounds no different than what a religious person might say when reason confronts their traditions. Sorry, but I believe that the woo-woo can be removed from martial arts training. We're not i

we have,done this before, no it really shouldn't, if you are talking about an ability to fight to a good standard, but karate doesn't measure its self on an ability to put people on the floor quickly, it measures its self on an ability to master perfect form on a seemingly infinite number of techniques, you master 50 in q,couple of years and find out there are another 1000 to go. And that does indeed take,decades to do.
its like a dancer trying to learn every dance that's ever been recorded, they can be said to be,a good dancer when they have a dozen under their belt, but lots more to go before they,are a master of dance.

with that as the end goal, there seems no rush to get you to being a,competent fighter and the training methodology is to go very slowly to completely master a few things, rather than turn you into a killing machine in 2years who is quite good ata limited amount of thing

if you cut out all the flim flam and,simplified karate down to the dozen most effective techniques, a bit like MT and just taught them, then an individual would progress at more or less the same speed as they would if they took up MT.

if you want to be,able to fight well and quickly, then karate is probably not the,discipline for you. If you want life long development of mind and body that has little to do with actually fighting then it is

You seem to be under the impression that I'm some meathead who cares only about brutality. You speak of "developing mind and body." This can be done regardless of MA training. Too many East Asian martial arts have become cultish in this way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Comments?

Seems to me that you have already made you decision and are not necessarily looking for a discusion on the topic.... also choosing a screen name that starts with Fuhrer (since it is defined as a ruthless, tyranical leader) does not exactly give one the feeling that you are looking for a productive discussion either. And Drumpf could be very easily thought of as a rather intense political statement when combined with Fuhrer.

Those are my only comments on this, I hope my thoughts on this are wrong

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

That's a very good analogy.

No, not really. Improving language skills serves a practical purpose. Improving complex kata only makes you good at doing complex kata.

 

[jobo]

I didn't say highly respected. I said highly regarded.



This sounds no different than what a religious person might say when reason confronts their traditions. Sorry, but I believe that the woo-woo can be removed from martial arts training. We're not i


You seem to be under the impression that I'm some meathead who cares only about brutality. You speak of "developing mind and body." This can be done regardless of MA training. Too many East Asian martial arts have become cultish in this way.

well of,course it can be done with out ma, you could take up ballroom dancing, BUTthe point remains that a good proportion of those doing tma are,doing so for reasons,only remotely to do with having an ability to fight well, certainly as they get older, it becomes life,affirming, it keeps them young(er)
saying right that's it! You have learned everything there is to learn is not what they want to here.

but again, as you chose not to understand it last time,
if you want to learn to fight to a high standard quickly, then the,whole outlook of karate is wrong for you, do MT instead

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

well of,course it can be done with out ma, you could take up ballroom dancing, BUTthe point remains that a good proportion of those doing tma are,doing so for reasons,only remotely to do with having an ability to fight well, certainly as they get older, it becomes life,affirming, it keeps them young(er)
saying right that's it! You have learned everything there is to learn is not what they want to here.

but again, as you chose not to understand it last time,
if you want to learn to fight to a high standard quickly, then the,whole outlook of karate is wrong for you, do MT instead

As an atheist and a rationalist, I get irritated when innocent people get duped by some of the traditional nonsense. I see no reason to put a martial art on a pedestal.

Also, you speak of using TMA for personal development. Ok. But remember the footage of the Chinese wushu master who accepted the challenge of the Chinese MMA fighter and lost in a few seconds? All his many years of "character improvement" flew out the window the moment he even accepted such a challenge.