Martial Arts fanaticals

[JR 137]

Have you been training with Mou Meng Gung Fu?

You had to beat me to it, didn't you?

 

[Flying Crane]

Provided a nail ends up driven through a piece of wood, no one would ever have any trouble understanding that something is a hammer, even if it is a completely foreign design.

I know the above seems very obvious and simple. It is simple, and yet we have folks around here who insist that they are learning to drive nails into wood by doing something totally different.

You're learning to drive nails?
Yes.
By swinging a screwdriver through the air?
Yes.
Do you think that's going to work?
Yes... eventually, and you're a jerk and a fanboy for suggesting it won't.

And how would you know that they never drive nails? Are you present at all of their training sessions?

It's ok to admit that you are simply unfamiliar with the training methods of other systems or other schools. It's also ok to decide that you are not interested in what they do, and then choose to not do it. It's also ok to have doubts about their methods, from your perspective and from what you have seen. But in the end, there is a whole lot about other systems that you simply do not know.

 

[dunc]

I think that once people become invested in something that they love doing a proportion of them will become fanatical or feel the need to convert people to their style
It's human nature I'm afraid

And as a TMA guy I'll say that I've been treated with a lot of respect from Day 1 in my BJJ Academy

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just as a note: Hitting a nail with a screwdriver does not make it a hammer..its still a screwdriver...it is just being used in a way that was not intended and could very likely damage the screwdriver

 

[CB Jones]

Just as a note: Hitting a nail with a screwdriver does not make it a hammer..its still a screwdriver...it is just being used in a way that was not intended and could very likely damage the screwdriver

I would argue that most of the time it isn't arguing whether to use a hammer or screwdriver it's whether to use a claw hammer or a ball peen hammer.

In the end doesn't it matter as long as the nail gets driven in.

 

[Steve]

And how would you know that they never drive nails? Are you present at all of their training sessions?

LOL. It's very concrete. You don't have to be at any training sessions to see real world evidence that one can perform a skill.

Carpenter: Hey, been a while. How's the screwdriver thing working out?
Other guy: Pretty good.
Carpenter: You going to drive a nail into wood soon?
Other guy: How do you know I'm not driving all kinds of nails into wood?
Carpenter: Are you?
Other guy: Maybe...
Carpenter: I'm skeptical.
Other guy: Yeah? And how would you know I never drive nails? Are you present at all of my training sessions?
Carpenter: Well, no. But I'm interested in your "hammer." Can you show me how it works?
Other guy: No.
Carpenter: Please?
Other guy: No. But not because I can't. I just... don't feel like it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would argue that most of the time it isn't arguing whether to use a hammer or screwdriver it's whether to use a claw hammer or a ball peen hammer.

In the end doesn't it matter as long as the nail gets driven in.

I would argue that based on the OP the examples were hammer and screwdriver. But then using ball peen or claw hammer it all depends on which side of the hammer you use, both sides will not accomplish the task equally.

 

[Steve]

I would argue that most of the time it isn't arguing whether to use a hammer or screwdriver it's whether to use a claw hammer or a ball peen hammer.

In the end doesn't it matter as long as the nail gets driven in.

But no nails are driven in... that's exactly the problem! Or to be more correct, "nail" is poorly defined, and so some people drive nails, but other people don't, and "nail" means something very specific to some people, and something different to others.

 

[Flying Crane]

LOL. It's very concrete. You don't have to be at any training sessions to see real world evidence that one can perform a skill.

Carpenter: Hey, been a while. How's the screwdriver thing working out?
Other guy: Pretty good.
Carpenter: You going to drive a nail into wood soon?
Other guy: How do you know I'm not driving all kinds of nails into wood?
Carpenter: Are you?
Other guy: Maybe...
Carpenter: I'm skeptical.
Other guy: Yeah? And how would you know I never drive nails? Are you present at all of my training sessions?
Carpenter: Well, no. But I'm interested in your "hammer." Can you show me how it works?
Other guy: No.
Carpenter: Please?
Other guy: No. But not because I can't. I just... don't feel like it.

Ok Steve, I'm glad you know everything.

 

[Steve]

Ok Steve, I'm glad you know everything.

I know what I know. It's like old school ultrasounds for babies. If they saw a penis, they would have affirmative proof: "It's a boy!!!" They were a lot more circumspect when they didn't see a penis: "We think it might be a girl. We saw nothing to suggest the baby is a boy."

So, when we talk about nails and wood, we can say, "Yeah, that contraption looks funny and foreign to me, but it drives a nail into wood. It is a hammer." Or, "Well, they say it's a hammer, but I've seen nothing to suggest it will drive a nail into wood."

If you tell me that you can drive a nail through a wood plank with a screw driver, I'm all in. I want to see that. And if you make the claim, but then get evasive and cagey about it, I become skeptical. And then, if you pull out "how do you know? Are you at every training session?" it' pings the BS meter big time.

People with nothing to hide typically appreciate opportunities to show you things they're proud of.

 

[Xue Sheng]

and now I am thinking, based on the OPs post and the responses to it

 

[Flying Crane]

I know what I know. It's like old school ultrasounds for babies. If they saw a penis, they would have affirmative proof: "It's a boy!!!" They were a lot more circumspect when they didn't see a penis: "We think it might be a girl. We saw nothing to suggest the baby is a boy."

So, when we talk about nails and wood, we can say, "Yeah, that contraption looks funny and foreign to me, but it drives a nail into wood. It is a hammer." Or, "Well, they say it's a hammer, but I've seen nothing to suggest it will drive a nail into wood."

If you tell me that you can drive a nail through a wood plank with a screw driver, I'm all in. I want to see that. And if you make the claim, but then get evasive and cagey about it, I become skeptical. And then, if you pull out "how do you know? Are you at every training session?" it' pings the BS meter big time.

People with nothing to hide typically appreciate opportunities to show you things they're proud of.

As I said, I'm glad you know everything.

 

[Steve]

As I said, I'm glad you know everything.

I love this picture. Makes me happy because he seems so earnest.

To give you a serious answer, I don't know everything about everything, and am pretty careful not to allege so. However, I am an expert on how people learn things. Teaching people practical skills, developing those skills and cultivating actual, demonstrable expertise is what I do. So, yeah. When it comes to topics like this, I'm very engaged because, yeah, I do actually know what I'm talking about.

Edit: I'll also just quickly add that, what I've related above isn't even all that far into the area of adult learning theory and developing expertise. It's really more about common sense and trusting one's intuition when being presented with BS.

 

[Flying Crane]

I love this picture. Makes me happy because he seems so earnest.

To give you a serious answer, I don't know everything about everything, and am pretty careful not to allege so. However, I am an expert on how people learn things. Teaching people practical skills, developing those skills and cultivating actual, demonstrable expertise is what I do. So, yeah. When it comes to topics like this, I'm very engaged because, yeah, I do actually know what I'm talking about.

Edit: I'll also just quickly add that, what I've related above isn't even all that far into the area of adult learning theory and developing expertise. It's really more about common sense and trusting one's intuition when being presented with BS.

Ok Steve, I'm glad you know everything.

 

[Steve]

and now I am thinking, based on the OPs post and the responses to it

Xue, your video is perfect. If only martial artists were as willing to demonstrate in a similar manner,

 

[Jenna]

i would agree with Jenna IF... martial arts were like music and we all have different tastes of what we like, all music has value to those who listen to it.
however ....the problems arise when someone says Jazz is the same as classical and then someone else says blues guitarists are better than bluegrass players. Indian Sitar is way more complicated and harder than Guitar.

martial arts has a myriad of different flavors and that is great. but most martial arts are judged in some similar areas . mainly self defense and fighting ability. again this is not the only value but it is one that often is a way to measure the value of an art. some people feel to judge an art by this standard is arbitrary others think it is the only standard.

I understand what you are saying.. I would like to add some thing I think is relevant??

There is inherent assumption in the whole can of worm discussion.. that martial art in entirety OUGHT to have a single standard

And further, this it self is predicated on the idea that martial art in entirety CAN have a single standard

I do not know that the second is even true???

Even were it to be, there cannot be assertion that the first be true??

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hey guys, good to meet you.

I don't want to take too much of your time. I just wanted to ask if you had heard the good news about our Lord and Savior Helio Gracie.

Oh, you're busy right now? That's okay. I can come back later. In the meantime, let me just leave you with some literature - here's a copy of the Gracie Diet and a DVD of Gracie JiuJitsu in Action. I'll talk to you soon. Have a blessed day now!

 

[Steve]

I understand what you are saying.. I would like to add some thing I think is relevant??

There is inherent assumption in the whole can of worm discussion.. that martial art in entirety OUGHT to have a single standard

And further, this it self is predicated on the idea that martial art in entirety CAN have a single standard

I do not know that the second is even true???

Even were it to be, there cannot be assertion that the first be true??

Jenna, I completely agree with you that there need not be a single standard to measure martial arts.

I do think, however, there should be standards within each art, that are well defined and measurable, and also consistent with the measurement of progress. Whatever those standards might be, everyone should know what they are, and how their progress toward achieving those standards will be determined.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I would argue that most of the time it isn't arguing whether to use a hammer or screwdriver it's whether to use a claw hammer or a ball peen hammer.

In the end doesn't it matter as long as the nail gets driven in.

Shimabuku Tatsuo, Soke, Isshin Ryu karate.

Legend says that he would drive nails in with his hands, which he had conditioned to have huge callouses on them. The legend further states that once, when he was giving a demonstration of this ability, he accidentally tore off one of the callouses on the hand he was using to drive nails into a board. He immediately leaped to his feet and using a crossover kick, drove the nail in with his heel.

I have no way to prove or disprove this story. However, this photo exists, as do the stories of those who claimed to have witnessed it.

Getting to the OP's statements, I can say that I've seen a lot of fanaticism in my time on earth. It often strikes me as essentially religious in nature. That is, it is driven mainly by belief. Sometimes it is actually about religion. Other times, it is about politics. Or group membership. Or other things. The object of the obsession varies; the obsession with transmitting the enthusiasm for that object doesn't seem to vary much.

I think it sometimes starts when a person discovers something that is so amazing to them, such a novel and powerful experience, that they become a convert and find themselves full of enthusiasm. Sometimes, they show that enthusiasm by evangelizing their new experience to everyone they know. It can be endearing; but taken to extremes, it can become a royal pain.

I try to appreciate the fact that they have found something that appears to be deeply satisfying and transformative to them. I get it; I have sometimes felt that way about different things myself. OK, maybe they get a bit pushy about sharing their new discovery. That's OK, as long as I can choose not to take part and still be friends with them. If they make it a condition of our relationship that I be into whatever they're into, that's going to be a problem, but I do try not to take it personally. Usually in time, they calm down about it.

However, no one would have any issues like this if they would just study Isshin Ryu. It is the best. But I leave it to you to figure that out for yourselves in time.

 

[Flying Crane]

And sometimes the answer can be as simple as, "you want proof? Well given what a jerk you have been, satisfying you isn't on my list of priorities. So, no."

I couldn't find the emoticon who shrugs his shoulders, so this one will need to suffice.