Losing It

[muayThaiPerson]

Does anyone believe in losing or forgetting their skills after a long period of time without training? I mean from a few months to a year given that the individual has trained from 6 months to 1 year atleast.

I believe that a person can "forget" what they know but the technique is imbeded in their reflexes. So they can use what they learned when the need it.


Just my 2 cents

 

[MartialArtist]

Yes, you can go into a downward spiral.

Some things, you never do forget if it becomes instinctive, like riding a bike, but you'll forget some moves that you thought you knew if you don't train, you'll get slower, have less stamina, lose strength, lose flexibility, lose power, etc.

 

[Antares33]

I don't think you'll ever completely loose all your skills, but you've got to train regularly to stay sharp. I start to feel a little rusty after only a week or so without training. I imagine it would only get worse.

 

[redfive]

I think its the opposite. The mind controls the body and reflexes. If you dont use a skill for over a year or so the body may need to be retrained to a degree, to get back to the level of skill it was at. Just like lifting weights, if you stop for a year and go back, you are not at the same level, but you remember how to lift the weights. that of course is a week example. If we are talking about fighting skills, I dont think that if you study for 6 months or so and then stop for a year, that you will loose much. Becouse as far as fighting systems go a year is nothing and you only have been tought the basics. but to get back to the physical level is the trick.
I have been learnig techniques since I was 14 and I'm now 33. I have blacks in four different systems, and I cant remember everything I was tought in each of the systems, but the mind doesnt forget, it simpley misplaces things. Everytime I go to train with friends or to a seminar, I see techniques that I have not done in a long time or did not recall even knowing them until I saw someone doing it again.
The trick is that even if you cant train, for some reason, you have to keep your mind sharp. Practice in your head, go over the techniques one by one. Then when you can go back to training , all you have to do is get the body back into shape. But unless you have been doing something for at least three years or so I think it would be rather hard to retaine anything over a year, if not thinking about it or practicing it at all. I took two years of typing and 12 years of English. After I graduated I didnt do hardly any typing or writing. This little essay is the result of years of no practice:shrug:
Your friend in the Combat Arts, Redfive

 

[D_Brady]

I believe the mind set you put your self in when you train helps.

Example- When you move a particular way and it just feels so right and I mean mentaly as well as physicaly your mind process this. When you need it a tight spot I found my mind brings it right when and where I need it, based on the brain it gave you the most direct route to save yout butt. The mind did this because of the feelings it recalled you had about certin positions and movements that felt so right for you . The mind can recall based on I've been here before, and this feeling registers a response that happens and your body reactin an almost relaxed state.

You may not remember every move or kata you ever learned, but your brain will never let you down when i'ts your ***.

My thoughts anyway, Repectfully Dan Brady.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

IMHO, if you don't train for a long while your MA skills will no doubt deteriorate, but, I don't think that you completely lose everything. After you fire up your training again, everything should begin to come back to you over time. I think that what would suffer the most from a long layoff from the MAs would be one's knowledge and mastery of forms (poomse for us TKD practitioners).

I've seen students experience big problems trying to remember the movements in poomse after being away from the dojang for a while and also not practicing on their own outside the dojang.

 

[karatekid1975]

This is a good thread. I was thinking of taking time off from TKD. I'm again not happy with the dojang (not the art, but the dojang itself). My body, I think, is trying to tell me that it's not right either. I definitely need to give my leg time to heal, but I want to take more time off than that. But yet, I don't want to loose what I already learned. I love the martial arts, but I have to take time to think. Maybe a few months will do. Thoughts?

 

[MartialArtist]

you probably won't lose anything in terms of technique.

You might be a bit rusty, but you'll get it back in a week or two.

The only thing you forget are forms :rofl:

 

[tarabos]

i took some time off in the past....you do get pretty rusty. but it comes back fairly quickly. the mind has to be trained just as much as the body. i believe that reflexes can also dwindle...and therefore your preformace will suffer as a result. martial arts is definitely not like riding a bike, and you know what? i got on a bike a little while ago and while i could still ride it...it wasn't like i was a kid again. couldn't even keep my balance for very long when i let go of the handle bars. you don't do something regularly your expertice in it will go downhill.

you can relate this to anything, not just the martial arts. i use a lot of different computer programs in my profession, some i use everyday, and some i use less often. the ones i do not use as often are not as much second nature to me. i find i forget how to do certain things and have to re-teach myself a little before i get back into the swing of things.

on the physical side...without activity, muscles will atrophy, lactic acid is all over...and when you go back to that activity it can be a rude awakening. then there's old age, which none of us can really do much about. the older you get the more you have to work at staying in shape and in condition. whereas when you were younger, you may have been able to sit and play video games and then get up and spar, it ain't happening so much anymore. or you could go out and eat almost a whole pizza and not gain a bit of fat. we all lose a little someday, but the more you stay in it the better.

 

[Ty K. Doe]

I stopped training for about 10 years then went back. I asked my intructor to drop me in rank because I didn't think that I was at that level anymore. He wouldn't do it. After a couple of weeks I relearned all my katas and other stuff with decent form. Granted I wasn't in near the shape I was 10 years earlier. After a couple months I was asked to compete in a tournament and took 3rd place. I thought that was pretty good after a 10 year layoff.

It was kinda funny though when I would say, "I thought we did it this way." My instructor would tell me that my memory must have been nocked loose back then.

Anyway, it was like riding a bike. I just got back on and knew how to ride.

 

[muayThaiPerson]

If you dont train for a while, then the skills are there but you cant remember them. So going back to training is only a refreshment. For me, I missed a month, but the hard blocking techniques are embeded in my reflexes..such as kick block, jab, and hook block. I still know how to kick adn all but what I doubt is my speed. Does anyone have their techniques embeded in their reflexes?

 

[Ty K. Doe]

Does anyone have their techniques embeded in their reflexes?

No I believe that has to do with conditioning.

 

[James Kovacich]

There a lot of aspects that I haven't touched for a while but they are still there. Usually I'll be a little slower for about a day. But that isn't in comparison to being in peak training condition. That is a differant level.

There are also a lot of things I don't use that were taught to me early on. When I train with somebody that uses that stuff, it will come to me pretty quickly. But again the level is not the same as someone training it day in day out.

But in general for something that is a part of what I do and may have neglected for a while, its about a day to get back up to speed.

 

[Nightingale]

What happened to me:

I trained in kenpo for eight years... then left town to go to college... no car... only martial arts school within walking distance was TKD. so I went to TKD. Wasn't my thing, but hey, it was martial arts, so I did it just for the workout really.

Went back to kenpo after I graduated 3 years later. I couldn't remember a damn thing. My instructor looked at me and said "clutching feathers" and I was going "huh what?" completely clueless.

then he just did the attack. and I just did the technique. It wasn't in my conscious mind filed away under "clutching feathers" but it was in my subconscious mind filed under "this is what you do when someone grabs you like that."

I realized that I'd somehow lost the association between technique name and actual technique, but if I was attacked, I did something that was pretty close to what I'd been taught. If he threw a right hand punch and was looking for Delayed Sword, he'd sometimes get Dance of Death instead, but it was something, and it was kenpo.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
What happened to me:

I trained in kenpo for eight years... then left town to go to college... no car... only martial arts school within walking distance was TKD. so I went to TKD. Wasn't my thing, but hey, it was martial arts, so I did it just for the workout really.

Went back to kenpo after I graduated 3 years later. I couldn't remember a damn thing. My instructor looked at me and said "clutching feathers" and I was going "huh what?" completely clueless.

then he just did the attack. and I just did the technique. It wasn't in my conscious mind filed away under "clutching feathers" but it was in my subconscious mind filed under "this is what you do when someone grabs you like that."

I realized that I'd somehow lost the association between technique name and actual technique, but if I was attacked, I did something that was pretty close to what I'd been taught. If he threw a right hand punch and was looking for Delayed Sword, he'd sometimes get Dance of Death instead, but it was something, and it was kenpo.

Thats what its about. Its not about remembering tech.#13 or forms 1-10 correctly. Although they are important parts of the "whole."

Its about reaction without thinking. What you train will come out when you need it. Thats why you don't just forms or just 1 & 2 step sparring.

"All" of your training equals the "whole."

Thats why people say this and that don't work. It's because they didn't come full circle.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe
No I believe that has to do with conditioning.

Yup, agreed... :asian:

 

[Cthulhu]

I learn a lot through 'muscle memory', so even if I conciously forget it, after attempting something for a bit, my body will remember it even if my brain doesn't. Sounds goofy, but that's how it works with me. It's not just with martial arts. I have the same thing with musical instruments. I'll learn a piece, forget it, then instantly pick it up again when I try to re-learn it.

Cthulhu

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I learn a lot through 'muscle memory', so even if I conciously forget it, after attempting something for a bit, my body will remember it even if my brain doesn't. Sounds goofy, but that's how it works with me. It's not just with martial arts. I have the same thing with musical instruments. I'll learn a piece, forget it, then instantly pick it up again when I try to re-learn it.

Cthulhu

That is very true. I don't train the way my Sifu trained me who's Jun Fan has a strong Wing Chun base. But lately I've been training with guys who remind me of him quite a bit and its coming right back.

It never left, I have a home made Gung-Fu dummy in my living room to play with but I spend most of my time teaching my students. So I don't get tested anywhere near like a should.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

One experience I had with a dream convinced me info stays in your unconscious mind longer than it remains in your muscle/nervous memory.

I don't know exactly what my job was in this dream, If I was building security or if I was just sick of this person and decided he was outta here( I was wearing a suit and tie, something I try never to do) , but there was this some kinda repeating troublemaker, or at least the other people in this office building seemed to recognize him with discomfort, and it didn't register to me in the dream whether I was wearing my pepper spray and my Glock or not( as on weekends and when leaving the house I am accustomed to do), but, for whatever reason, I had to remove this person from the building without "demolishing" him because there were witnesses present.

Anyway, and this is gonna be tough to describe but here goes:

Muffinhead is acting all either drunk or just ******* like, or both, and I'm seated givin him a dirty look as he comes over to my chair and I "knew" in the dream that I'd warned him off, or he'd otherwise been warned outta here before, and here he comes saying "Heeeeey" with his smug "I'm gettin' away with something and you can't do anything about it" grin and , stooping, facing me, puts his left hand on my left shoulder as I'm seated.

This was not a wise choice.

I move my right hand atop the back of his left, trapping it against my shoulder, and twist his metacarpals down and clockwise,hard(toward his outboard side).

It registers on his face. He bends down. I stand. Hook my left hand under his left elbow, forming a "compression lock" on his left wrist, maintaining the original lock but adding my other hand as a leverage brace at the elbow to compress the wrist even further all unbeknownst to the now shocked " oh my god" witnesses.


I tell him in my Business Voice(I almost never yell but something in my tone changes and my teeth show more is all) not to ever(censored) touch me. He cracks wise while in the lock. I compress. He's one of the types who laughs and cracks wise to his "audience" to hide his pain.
He makes another of his "what're-you-gonna-do-you-think-this-hurts-look-at-this-folks" sort of comment(don't remember exact details). I change the angle and compress hard enough to drop him to a knee. He stops laughing and Gets Mad. His eyes harden , his jaw works, and he tries to swing at me with his other arm. Each time he cocks it to throw it I compress and he changes his mind as I tell him "You gonna swing? Go ahead." (cocks to swing) *compress* "Go ahead". (cocks to swing) *compress*. He tries to force his way up onto his feet. I've had enough by this point and position his left elbow against the crook of *my* left elbow, put both hands on the bent left wrist and bend into it and compress hard enough to hear just the beginnings of the wrist popping. He goes onto both knees, His covering laugh degenerates at last into the first teeth-clenched scream I've gotten from him, his face flushes red and his eyes cross. I see an excellent opportunity to knee his jawbone out through the top of his skull but then I hear my own thoughts "No. No strikes. Witnesses. Stand down."

It's unclear what happens next, whether I threw him in a takedown, whether I shoved him back or whether he somehow just scrambled loose, but the next part I clearly remember is that he's back up and we're separated by about 10 feet. He covers the first few, standing , unruffling his suit jacket, and once again, smirk in place strides toward me with arm/index finger pointing. I close and meet him before his other hand quite gets cocked to swing, fingerlock the finger which draws him off balance, and being very careful to , if not hide it completely, at least make it appear accidental, continuing to walk into him as he's pulled toward me, very discreetly headbutt his face avoiding breaking his nose, and using this as a setup, lace my left arm under his right armpit , pivot, and keep going till my left hand is pressing on his shoulder in an arm/shoulder lock with his head down and I start bumrushing him to the elevator(for some reason we're not on ground level). He begins to struggle free so I change the hold; keeping the arm pinned, I figure fine, he wants to stand I'll help him stand nice and tippy-toe straight-I drive my left thumb up into his right armpit( his back to me) , pull down with my right on his arm, drive up with my thumb, grab muscle, twist and keep pushing up and toward the elevator. Him being off balance in two directions and being pushed by someone not all that smaller than he, goes into the elevator.

He composes himself in the elevator, walks up. i'm blocking his reentry onto the floor in the classic folded hands doorman pose but with my right side back and feet at 45-degree angles. He stops just short of leaving the elevator, sticks his face right up to mine as the doors begin to close.

But you see, I've taken him away from witnesses and already gone past the hall camera.

Just before the doors close I throw a beautiful, totally unexpected snapping overhand right squarely into his jaw. While it's open. Snap my hand back just as the doors close. Hear a thunk and a very comical. "Owww. Mgy TeEEeeEeeef......."


Which is all fine and well until you inderstand that each joint lock I used was A Joint Lock I Forgot I Knew...........

 

[Andy Moynihan]

ADDITIONAL COMMENT: The post above is notes from a dream I had about a year, year and a half ago.