Lop Da Drill

KPM

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On another thread Guy B. wrote:

Let's discuss bong and/or the bong lap drill, that would be great. I did try to discuss earlier but nobody wanted to.

Great idea! Since this is a very prominent aspect of nearly every Phillip Bayer video on youtube, I would love to hear more about how WSLVT views it and what it trains.

From a Pin Sun Wing Chun perspective it is not nearly as "central" a drill as it appears to be in WSLVT.......we see this as a relatively simple and straight-forward beginner's drill that is just one of many. We do it a little differently than what you see in most Ip Man lineages. You see it here at the 1:35 minute mark:



The punch is a "Gwai Choi", which is a type of "back-knuckle", and not a straight punch. The forearms stay in contact at the "pivot point" the entire time and do not disengage. When used outside of the drill, rather than using a common pivot at the mutual forearm contact, from the Bong the Gwai Choi swings around as the elbow pins the opponent's arm just above the elbow and the strike is aimed at the bridge of the nose.
 

guy b

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On another thread Guy B. wrote:

Let's discuss bong and/or the bong lap drill, that would be great. I did try to discuss earlier but nobody wanted to.

Great idea! Since this is a very prominent aspect of nearly every Phillip Bayer video on youtube, I would love to hear more about how WSLVT views it and what it trains.

Hi KPM, just a quick answer because I am going to bed: bong lap is indeed used very frequently in VT and often integrated into wider chi sau. It is primarily training punching structure in terms of coordination of pull and punch with the whole body working together, as well as the ability to absorb and channel force received. It trains balance, speed, body unity in the punch. It also teaches about changing when an attack is met with resistance, and it teaches about bong sau.

It presents a lot of opportunity for variation and can become quite complex, but I think that it is primarily a force exchange drill and this is why it is done very often.

From a Pin Sun Wing Chun perspective it is not nearly as "central" a drill as it appears to be in WSLVT.......we see this as a relatively simple and straight-forward beginner's drill that is just one of many. We do it a little differently than what you see in most Ip Man lineages. You see it here at the 1:35 minute mark:



The punch is a "Gwai Choi", which is a type of "back-knuckle", and not a straight punch. The forearms stay in contact at the "pivot point" the entire time and do not disengage. When used outside of the drill, rather than using a common pivot at the mutual forearm contact, from the Bong the Gwai Choi swings around as the elbow pins the opponent's arm just above the elbow and the strike is aimed at the bridge of the nose.

That is indeed quite a different way of doing the drill. Interesting to see how it is done in your system and to see the superficial similarities but quite big differences in terms of how it must work and fit together as a system?
 

Danny T

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On another thread Guy B. wrote:

Let's discuss bong and/or the bong lap drill, that would be great. I did try to discuss earlier but nobody wanted to.

Great idea! Since this is a very prominent aspect of nearly every Phillip Bayer video on youtube, I would love to hear more about how WSLVT views it and what it trains.

From a Pin Sun Wing Chun perspective it is not nearly as "central" a drill as it appears to be in WSLVT.......we see this as a relatively simple and straight-forward beginner's drill that is just one of many. We do it a little differently than what you see in most Ip Man lineages. You see it here at the 1:35 minute mark:



The punch is a "Gwai Choi", which is a type of "back-knuckle", and not a straight punch. The forearms stay in contact at the "pivot point" the entire time and do not disengage. When used outside of the drill, rather than using a common pivot at the mutual forearm contact, from the Bong the Gwai Choi swings around as the elbow pins the opponent's arm just above the elbow and the strike is aimed at the bridge of the nose.
This is quite different from how we do the Bong/Lop drill in several aspects. Timing, positioning of the Bong, the punching arm, and the lop arm structure during the lop as well as after. We do the straight punch as well as the back fist and we do a sot sao switch, a pak sao switch, and a jao sao switch.
 
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KPM

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This is quite different from how we do the Bong/Lop drill in several aspects. Timing, positioning of the Bong, the punching arm, and the lop arm structure during the lop as well as after. We do the straight punch as well as the back fist and we do a sot sao switch, a pak sao switch, and a jao sao switch.

We also have several switches. And yesterday I forgot that I actually put this on one of my own videos, which may be a better example! Starting here at the 16:00 minute mark:


You can see that the timing is different from most Ip Man versions. The Lop isn't really so much of a grab (even momentarily), but more of a cover. In fact, the name of the "extension" set that this comes directly from is called "Cup Da Sau" or "Cover Hit Hand."
 

wckf92

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Interesting to see the Pin Sun Lop drill. Thx for posting.

So, do any of you guys 'disengage' a little from your partners arm, when your arm is transitioning from Bong to Punch?
 

Danny T

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We also have several switches. And yesterday I forgot that I actually put this on one of my own videos, which may be a better example! Starting here at the 16:00 minute mark:


You can see that the timing is different from most Ip Man versions. The Lop isn't really so much of a grab (even momentarily), but more of a cover. In fact, the name of the "extension" set that this comes directly from is called "Cup Da Sau" or "Cover Hit Hand."
Thanks, Keith
This is more to how we drill. Sticking to the opponent's arm and rolling into the following strike. (we often refer to the drill as the Bong-Cut-Roll drill)
We don't grab for the most part either. The wu sao simple cuts with no up and down movement of the elbow. It can become a lop using the little to middle finger, a jum action, or a gum action. We don't pull the opponent's arm down or back. We also use a Biu-Bong-Roll drill where the lop happens after the bong roll.
 

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I have learned in two different lineages.

In the Ip Ching lineage, the lop is a grab and pull. My current Sifu learned from both Augustine Fong and Jack Ling. In their version, the lop is more of a cover than a grab. Personally, I have always felt that bong/lop drill is setting people up to be introduced to chi sao, especially when you get into using techniques that will switch you from one side to the other.

The thing is...with that first video, it looks to me like they are just trying to go fast without any feel for sensitivity or structure. I mean no disrespect...just describing how it looks to me. Wing chun isn't just about fast hands, but there are so many videos out there that would have people believe otherwise. There has to be proper rooting and structure behind the attacks, or getting hit with them would just leave a little sting at best.
 

wingchun100

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I like that because it is a lot more dynamic than just pivoting from one side to the next.
 
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KPM

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It is primarily training punching structure in terms of coordination of pull and punch with the whole body working together, as well as the ability to absorb and channel force received. It trains balance, speed, body unity in the punch. It also teaches about changing when an attack is met with resistance, and it teaches about bong sau.

It presents a lot of opportunity for variation and can become quite complex, but I think that it is primarily a force exchange drill and this is why it is done very often.

No real "pull" in our version, and as you can see we are training a punch that is not the typical straight punch. But we are working the coordination of the whole body. We "sink" with the punch and "rise" a bit with the next Bong. We use it as a reflex drill to really get the desired response into "muscle memory." The response we are trying to ingrain is that as soon as you sense something crossing your "Kiu" or forearm from outside inward...you roll into Bong and right into the Gwai Choi without pause. So the Bong would never really stop or "pause" as in the drill. Its that old "flexible bamboo" analogy.....someone presses across your forearm and it "gives" momentarily like a bamboo pole as a Bong and snaps right back as the Gwai Choi. So it is trained fast to really get that "snapping back" sense and with many many reps to ingrain the response.

What I see in the PB videos is that he is using his Bong essentially as a barrier. Is that accurate? He puts it up, and depending on how the opponent responds, he flows from there. This seems like a natural out-growth of Chi Sau, since the Ip Man Chi Sau roll uses the same Bong. But in Pin Sun we don't do the Chi Sau rolling like that, so the Bong isn't used that way either.
 

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In the above video Bayer seems to present his bong more often as a high lan sao (several times he did do more of a bong) where as the other person presented what appears to be a more conventional bong.
 
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KPM

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^^^^^^ Yes, that is what I was seeing as well. Using Bong as a barrier, just like a Lan Sau. That's the impression I've gotten from a lot of his past videos as well.
 

guy b

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What I see in the PB videos is that he is using his Bong essentially as a barrier. Is that accurate?

No bong isn't used as a barrier and drill isn't teaching applications. Sorry I am a bit busy with work, will try to type a fuller answer when I am free
 

Danny T

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Basic drill

Very similar to what we do. Timing is about the same. My sifu would not like the raised elbow on the lop arm. Of course because of Bayer's left arm he can't use the palm to maintain pressure with so he needs to sink the elbow a bit more. At 11 seconds you can see how his arm slips of Wong's. If not them drilling Wong simply futs and he's in. Happens again at 13 seconds.
 

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You see it here at the 1:35 minute mark:

At 1:35, what kind of power can you generate by freezing your body and upper arm and only move your lower arm? Even if your punch may land on your opponent's face, can you truly knock him down?
 
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KPM

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At 1:35, what kind of power can you generate by freezing your body and upper arm and only move your lower arm? Even if your punch may land on your opponent's face, can you truly knock him down?

Are you referring to the Gwai Choi? You don't "freeze the body." You sink as you deliver the punch. In the Lop Da drill itself there is just fast repetition to develop muscle memory as I said before. You obviously can't carry through with the punch because it is a continuous drill. Check out the clip of myself that I posted and I explain the Gwai Choi more there.
 

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Are you referring to the Gwai Choi? You don't "freeze the body." You sink as you deliver the punch. In the Lop Da drill itself there is just fast repetition to develop muscle memory as I said before. You obviously can't carry through with the punch because it is a continuous drill. Check out the clip of myself that I posted and I explain the Gwai Choi more there.
It looks like a "back fist" to me.

It's a speed vs. power issue. The power comes from the body is not shown there. The preying mantis system also has this concern. You want to show fast combo, you end with only move part of your body and not the whole body. The "body rotation" is missing there. Again, if you add "body rotation" into it, you won't be able to do a fast combo.

CMA has a lot of these kind of "fast combo" that you can "throw 6 punches in 1 second". It may be good for "set up" but it's not good for "knock out".
 
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