Leverage: strikes to beat bigger guys

[dnovice]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking of leverage ever since reading the "gracie way." Bjj is great for taking down big guys in a one on one scenario because of leverage. They attack the weakest areas in ways that even huge guys find difficult to defend against. For strikers there are similar areas-I'm not refering to dim mak- to work on if we don't want to pit brawn against brawn. (we fight smrt)

I am trying to catalogue such areas. Here a list of places I think are good:
1)knees
2)elbows
3) the throat
4) the balls

Anyone else have other points or strike spots?

 

[seasoned]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking of leverage ever since reading the "gracie way." Bjj is great for taking down big guys in a one on one scenario because of leverage. They attack the weakest areas in ways that even huge guys find difficult to defend against. For strikers there are similar areas-I'm not refering to dim mak- to work on if we don't want to pit brawn against brawn. (we fight smrt)

I am trying to catalogue such areas. Here a list of places I think are good:
1)knees
2)elbows
3) the throat
4) the balls

Anyone else have other points or strike spots?

Behind the ear strike.
Ear slap thumb in eye combo.
Solar plexus.

 

[myusername]

Bang em' on the chin!
Jaw hinge
Temporal lobes
Throat/windpipe
carotid artery
cervical vertabrae

Any other targeting areas such as groin, legs, floating ribs etc is about me distracting them enough to find an opening to get a good shot at the above mentioned sweet spots. The creator of my jujutsu syllabus is of the opinion that to be a "man stopper" it has to involve taking away the airway, the blood supply or consciousness (a direct knockout).

Here is a clip of him talking about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-jWRrZ5J7s&feature=related

 

[geezer]

Bang em' on the chin!
Jaw hinge
Temporal lobes
Throat/windpipe
carotid artery
cervical vertabrae

OK, my problem with this is that there isn't much that you can use against a big guy that he can't use right back against you! That's why little guys have to go for the nasty stuff right away. They can't stand there trading punches. They have to take the other guy out fast. It's like that signature line somebody uses around here (I can't remember who). Something like, "Scare a big guy and he'll hurt you. Scare a little guy and he'll kill you." Has kind of a Terry Pratchett ring to it. Regardless, it's the truth.

 

[mook jong man]

Most of them are on or just either side of the centreline , one of the reason that Wing Chun strikes on the centreline is that the opponent is forced to absorb the full power of the strike .

If the strike is done off centre the opponents body will pivot slightly and absorb only part of the force and the rest is wasted , but done on the centre he will have to absorb the whole lot which is more damaging.

Having said that if I really want to put somebody down who is a lot bigger than me I would use a double palm strike to the chest or head stepping in with my full body weight or maybe a Bil Gee elbow strike to their sternum.

 

[dnovice]

Behind the ear strike.
Ear slap thumb in eye combo.
Solar plexus.

What happens when you hit the behind the ear?

 

[dnovice]

Bang em' on the chin!
Jaw hinge
Temporal lobes
Throat/windpipe
carotid artery
cervical vertabrae

Any other targeting areas such as groin, legs, floating ribs etc is about me distracting them enough to find an opening to get a good shot at the above mentioned sweet spots. The creator of my jujutsu syllabus is of the opinion that to be a "man stopper" it has to involve taking away the airway, the blood supply or consciousness (a direct knockout).

Here is a clip of him talking about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-jWRrZ5J7s&feature=related

Nice video. Is there another clip where explains where to strike in the chin? At the moment im wary of solely striking the chin because of the reason he mentioned... It takes tío many shots to the chin to accomplish this.

 

[dnovice]

OK, my problem with this is that there isn't much that you can use against a big guy that he can't use right back against you! That's why little guys have to go for the nasty stuff right away. They can't stand there trading punches. They have to take the other guy out fast. It's like that signature line somebody uses around here (I can't remember who). Something like, "Scare a big guy and he'll hurt you. Scare a little guy and he'll kill you." Has kind of a Terry Pratchett ring to it. Regardless, it's the truth.

I agree. Lucky for us the bigger the opponent the greater his confidence in brawn and for the most part his neglect in training how to use leverage. Human nature.

 

[dnovice]

Most of them are on or just either side of the centreline , one of the reason that Wing Chun strikes on the centreline is that the opponent is forced to absorb the full power of the strike .

If the strike is done off centre the opponents body will pivot slightly and absorb only part of the force and the rest is wasted , but done on the centre he will have to absorb the whole lot which is more damaging.

Having said that if I really want to put somebody down who is a lot bigger than me I would use a double palm strike to the chest or head stepping in with my full body weight or maybe a Bil Gee elbow strike to their sternum.

Yes, especially if the person is adept at dodging it becomes real hard to hit of center spots. But if the person is a lot bigger than you wouldnt it take a lot of energy and strikes to make a chest strike work? When I spar we pound each other chest decently hard. It hurts but I can still go on and trade shots etc.

 

[mook jong man]

Yes, especially if the person is adept at dodging it becomes real hard to hit of center spots. But if the person is a lot bigger than you wouldnt it take a lot of energy and strikes to make a chest strike work? When I spar we pound each other chest decently hard. It hurts but I can still go on and trade shots etc.

If I am close enough to hit them they cannot dodge me because I am immobilising their arms with trapping as I am hitting and putting forward pressure on them so they are off balance .

They can only dodge me if they stay out of range , in which case I will then chase them down with low kicks.

I would typically use the strikes I mentioned as a finisher , say for example on the end of a couple of chain punches. A double palm strike is very powerful and I can pretty much get larger people than me airborne and propel them back several metres.

The elbow strike is devastating as well because it travels in a circular action and then comes crashing down point first into the sternum breaking bones and caving it in .

Because of the way this elbow strike is done the force travels straight down into the body , much more damaging than a horizontal elbow .
Since you mentioned dodging , It reminded me of a drill we use to do to improve reflexes and footwork .

This drill will get you used to reacting to a highly mobile opponent and staying in our prefered range. Stand in front of your partner and start doing light chain punching on his chest make sure are in the correct range with your elbows bent .

Then have your partner dance around like Sugar Ray Leonard , get him to change directions and range constantly , he should be trying to get away from you and dodge you as much as he can .

Your job is to try and react to his direction changes and changes of range by trying to stick to him like glue , staying in range and continuously firing those punches into his chest.

The partner does not do any attacks , at this stage we are only working on being mobile in our stance , being in range and developing our reflexes in reacting to our opponents constant movement.

Probably best to do it for rounds of about 2 minutes as it can be quite exhausting , when you think your footwork and reaction speed is up to par then you can go back into regular sparring with you and your partner attacking and defending as per usual.

 

[mook jong man]

What happens when you hit the behind the ear?

Causes dizzyness and loss of balance , because it affects the inner ear which controls your sense of balance and equilibrium.
Not only that , it bloody hurts as well.

 

[dnovice]

thanks mook for the clarification and detail. I will work on the exercise routine you mentioned to work on my mobility and footwork.

Does the palm strike immobilize the opponent? Also, is it save to try in a sparring session?

 

[dnovice]

Causes dizzyness and loss of balance , because it affects the inner ear which controls your sense of balance and equilibrium.
Not only that , it bloody hurts as well.

Nice. Is there a way to bait the person into opening up the ear area so you can get to it? Also, what kind of strike do you use: full fist, palm strike, chop, or pheonix punch?

 

[mook jong man]

thanks mook for the clarification and detail. I will work on the exercise routine you mentioned to work on my mobility and footwork.

Does the palm strike immobilize the opponent? Also, is it save to try in a sparring session?

No what I mean by immobilising the opponent is that I have his arms trapped by using wrist latching combined with striking , so that my arms are constantly on top of his and controlling them and clearing the path for further striking.

The double palm strike is best used for example after they have grabbed both your wrists , just sink both your elbows down with the bottom edge of your hand cutting through the weakest part of his grip which is his thumbs , combined with a low heel kick to the knee then step in and double palm strike the chest.

I wouldn't double palm strike an attacker in the head , it might break their neck . You could also use it against a double throat grab , just raise your guard deflecting both his arms up , at the same time low heel kick the knee and step in with double palm strike , timing the hit when your kicking leg hits the floor.

You can use it anytime your on the inside of his arms say against a hay maker ,move in with your regular counter do a few punches then finish with the double palm strike. You can still use it if his hands are on the centerline but obviously it is a little bit harder because you have to trap him and get his arms down so the path is clear.

I wouldn't practice it in sparring might be a bit dangerous , you might get a bit carried away and knock him into a wall or something plus you never know what someones heart is like , a sharp blow can cause the heart muscle to go out of its rhythm on some people.

Just practice it in isolation with him holding a big kick shield on his chest and you stepping in with full speed and power , make sure nothing is behind him or get some people to catch him.

Make sure both your elbows are in as you strike the pad , with both your palms slightly cup shaped , making contact with the heels of your palms , stay perfectly upright , don't lean, and stay sunk down .

If you want to practice it with techniques then just step in with your arms in the optimum angle and don't strike but just leave palms out and move him back with your stance or strike using very moderate power.

 

[mook jong man]

Nice. Is there a way to bait the person into opening up the ear area so you can get to it? Also, what kind of strike do you use: full fist, palm strike, chop, or pheonix punch?

I don't know man some other arts might have some way of baiting the opponent to get to that area. But from a purely Wing Chun perspective if it is on the centreline in relation to me then I will hit it , but it would not be something I would specifically be going after.

In Wing Chun to get at that area you can pierce through with your Tan Sau inside his defences and follow under the jawline and hit with the edge of your Tan Sau palm ( pinky side) just under and behind the ear .

Pierce through and then strike forward and slightly up. Another way would be from him throwing a straight punch , I throw my centreline punch on the outside of his punch and redirect his punch off to the side , then I change my punch to a latch , grabbing his arm ( don't use thumb ) and pivot at the same time.

This usually has the effect of dragging them in so that they are now in a semi side on position to me . From there the whole side of the head , ear , body is exposed .

If you wanted to hit that under ear area the best way would be with a palm strike using the edge of your hand and your fingers facing outwards at 45 degrees , again directing your force forward and slightly up , assuming the attacker is bigger than you.

But the chances are in the chaos and adrenaline of a real fight you wont be thinking I'm going to strike his ear , you will just be going hell for leather with your punches because that is what you have practiced the most , and in real fights the tendency is to revert back to very simple techniques and the ones that are ingrained and that you can do with out conscious thought.

 

[myusername]

OK, my problem with this is that there isn't much that you can use against a big guy that he can't use right back against you! That's why little guys have to go for the nasty stuff right away. They can't stand there trading punches. They have to take the other guy out fast. It's like that signature line somebody uses around here (I can't remember who). Something like, "Scare a big guy and he'll hurt you. Scare a little guy and he'll kill you." Has kind of a Terry Pratchett ring to it. Regardless, it's the truth.

When I mentioned those target areas I did not mean to imply that you are to stand there and trade punches. What I mean is that I am taught to view these as the only true "manstoppers." This does not mean that one would not evade, block and parry or even attack other targets. I advocate attacking other targets such as toes, shins, knees, groin, bladder, floating ribs, sternum, joints/elbows etc. However, I would view these striking areas as secondary to those in my original post, I would view them as precursors or set ups to me being able to get a good clear shot at those targets that affect the blood flow, air supply or conciousness of my attacker. I consider these secondary targets essential distracting strikes as people naturally defend their head and throat quite well but I do not consider them finishers. It would not be a trade either, once making that decision to initiate physical self defence then it is all systems go and it would be a blitzing mentality of combining an onslaught of strikes from hands, feet, elbows, knees and teeth!

Within the context that we are talking of a smaller person defending against a much larger opponent I would say that this is why we as martial artists drill our strikes so much, so that each strike reaches the maximum power that the martial artist can deliver. A smaller person can knock out a larger opponent with a well deliver palm heel or punch to the chin.

I know that this thread is dealing with striking but remember that if you are throwing your best shots at the jaw, temporal lobes, throat/windpipe, carotid artery or cervical vertabrae and it is not having the desiired effect then you are in trouble! If your hardest shot to the windpipe hasn't worked then standing there trading blows to other target areas isn't going to help. Your best bet is to close in, grab on a decent choke or strangle and hang on in there until it is all over!

 

[qwksilver61]

no mention of the turnstile theory? as prescribed on pg.49
"Dynamic Wing Tsun" (first edition 1985) the first book on Wing Tsun that I ever bought,an invaluable training tool for the beginner.I didn't believe it until I experienced it for the first time...big musclebound guy takes a swing...I trust in theory...contact with forearm..he turned/spun me towards him (adduction+relaxed upper torso)..sun punch (luckily) towards is upper chest...I almost put him through the wall....yield,press forward in this instance......bolting forward works too,but you better not miss....or stop.The wall bag drills definitely helped to develop smacking,stinging whip like punches as opposed to the forced punches delivered by most people,somehow people equate size with power,the diference between launching a fridge and getting hit with the business end of a whip.Ali was a very relaxed fighter,and delivered devastating punches,Sifu Emin is powerful but relaxed.
two cents....

 

[mook jong man]

no mention of the turnstile theory? as prescribed on pg.49
"Dynamic Wing Tsun" (first edition 1985) the first book on Wing Tsun that I ever bought,an invaluable training tool for the beginner.I didn't believe it until I experienced it for the first time...big musclebound guy takes a swing...I trust in theory...contact with forearm..he turned/spun me towards him (adduction+relaxed upper torso)..sun punch (luckily) towards is upper chest...I almost put him through the wall....yield,press forward in this instance......bolting forward works too,but you better not miss....or stop.The wall bag drills definitely helped to develop smacking,stinging whip like punches as opposed to the forced punches delivered by most people,somehow people equate size with power,the diference between launching a fridge and getting hit with the business end of a whip.Ali was a very relaxed fighter,and delivered devastating punches,Sifu Emin is powerful but relaxed.
two cents....

That is a good point Qwksilver about force = mass x acceleration.
The way we form our fist upon impact increases the acceleration and penetration of the strike more than conventional striking .

Couple that acceleration with somebody who has a good stance and you have a Wing Chun person who has learned to maximise their force by the skillfull utilisation of their body mass.

Or to put it more simply my Sifu used to say what would you rather be hit by ? A truck going at 50 m.p.h or a car going at 100 m.p.h

 

[zDom]

Your best bet is to close in, grab on a decent choke or strangle and hang on in there until it is all over!

see, at about 1:20

 

[naneek]

lol "inconcievable"