Locking

[Flatlander]

Is training ourselves in joint locking really practical for a self defence application? Why or why not?

In my experience, locking really only comes into play when you have an element of surprise and already have contact, or are the physical superior in an engagement. In that regard, I don't see locking as being a huge factor if your goal is to gain range and boogie.

Now, not to say that there isn't value in training it - there's a ton of value in learning and understanding lock flow - I'm just wondering if there isn't a tendency to over value locking - to suppose that we might actually be able to subdue attackers with a joint lock.

What say you?

 

[bignick]

I'd worry less about locking for control in self defense rather than following through to the lock's conclusion and breaking or dislocating the joint.

 

[SAVAGE]

Is training ourselves in joint locking really practical for a self defence application?

Yes it is!

In my experience, locking really only comes into play when you have an element of surprise and already have contact, or are the physical superior in an engagement.

I do not mean to offend you...but you have very little idea about joint locking! A joint lock is not dependent on size or strength of the user. It has little to do with surprise or already having contact! Basically it comes down to blending with your opponents strike and sticking to that limb....a good example of this is a kake uke

( open hand middle block ) begins with the palm facing UP, towards the sky, not palm facing the opponent as most would believe. The block comes out of chamber across the body at about a 45* angle, both out and up. It is the mid-forearm that makes the initial contact with the incoming attacking limb. At that point, the forearm makes a sort of semi circle, starting at the level of interception, going up, and as the semi circle drops down, thats when the palm then rotates, facing down, to facilitate the "grab" of the opponents arm (for a punch lets say).

a descripton of kake uke by Sensei Jules Hoenig!

Also let us say that you have grabbed the offending apendage....it is not a matter of brute strength but teachnique....lets say you have your grip on his wrist...he then pulls his arm back towards his body...you step forward and apply your lock....or if he tries to push his arm towards your body...you step backward and apply your lock....THE ANGLE OF RESISTANCE IS THE ANGLE OF ATTACK!.....if he tries to stand stationary and resist with his strength....you spearhand him in the armpit, smack him upside the head, kick or knee to the groin, grab the side of his stomach, palm heel to solar plex, punch floating rib.....whatever..and then apply your lock!

Strength really has little to do with it...I am 117kg...I get hurled around in hapkido by people half my size...joints just arent made to turn inthe fashion of joint locks and it doesnt matter how strong you are muscles and bones are two very different things!

Now, not to say that there isn't value in training it - there's a ton of value in learning and understanding lock flow - I'm just wondering if there isn't a tendency to over value locking - to suppose that we might actually be able to subdue attackers with a joint lock.

I for one have used it often, when I worked the doors in n ight clubs...I use it more than I throw strikes....why because I understand them, I train hard at it. I have disarmed knives, I have fought of multiple opponents using HKD! I think that it comes down to a aikidoka, hapkidoist, jujitsu player will be better and have a diffrent idea about locking than say a Jeet Kung Doist, Tae KWon Do ist ansd Muay Thai fighter!

By the same token I would hate to try to out kick a TKD/MT fighter...but I dont believe so much in kicks.

I also believe what you think...well not just you, but people in MA generally think along what I can do lines...basically a person that cant pull off locks...sees little ort no value in it. A person who cannot sucessfully
box but is a sucessful JUdoka sees more value in one than the other!

What say you?

Joint locks are the best way to defend yourself, because it gives YOU the control as to how much the violence escalates! And I think that you need to not only look at the techniques but at its applications..the things that need to be done before attempting the lock...and the things after the lock is applied!

 

[Marvin]

I'd worry less about locking for control in self defense rather than following through to the lock's conclusion and breaking or dislocating the joint.

I didn't quite understand that, could you explain it again please. If I seem dense it's cuz I am
Thanks
Marvin

 

[MA-Caver]

In a SD application yes it has a lot of value. Particularly if you're in a situation where you can't readily get away. By momentarily subduing your attacker/antagonist you gain a precious few moments to think your way and perhaps (though sometimes not likely) to reason with them.
I had a guy who was wanting to "put the hurt" on me. After avoiding all that I could from our physical contact we "got in to it" and I managed to get him into a nice arm/neck lock that basically with a little pressure would've put the hurt seriously on him as in hospitalization and perhaps a wheelchair confinment for the rest of his life. I told him thus and he relented.

Not always and not in every SD situation but it does come in handy.

 

[bignick]

I didn't quite understand that, could you explain it again please. If I seem dense it's cuz I am
Thanks
Marvin

No prob...

In theory, a joint lock works by taking a joint outside of it's ROM (range of motion). When this starts to happen the body sends pain signals to the brain to try to prevent injury. This is where the term "pain compliance" comes into play. Once you start to take the joint outside of the ROM there is only so far you can go before you start damaging the joint, either by dislocating it or tearing ligaments free, etc. If this is a true self defense situation...I'd worry less about trying to control someone with pain and try my best to remove one of their weapons/defenses. Applying a joint lock hard and fast limits or removes the other persons ability to "go with it" and this is where you get that type of damage. If you would like more detail I can do my best to give an example.

 

[shesulsa]

If you would like more detail I can do my best to give an example.

While I understand what you're saying, please do anyway.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I love joint locks and train with them often. I also spent some time bouncing and guarding bodies and have had chances to find out their value in s-d.

I find that the intricate joint locks rely on too much precision for _me_ to use in combat. More skilled people might be able to lock them in. The more basic arm bars, leg bars and body creases work like a charm.

The other important aspect if not to focus on the lock for its own sake. Use the lock to distract, offset and position your opponent for your power shots. Or to knock them down so you're 50 yards away at a dead sprint by the time they're back on their feet.

My 1 1/3 cents canadian.

 

[Simon Curran]

I see value in training joint locks for self defence purposes because they are just another tool to have in the tool box, might never need it or even get to use it, but it is there if the necessity arises.

 

[Marvin]

So BigNick, what you are saying is the intent should be to break or dislocate the joint, not to "control" it?

 

[bdparsons]

I posted this reply on another thread that dealt with basically the same subject:

The process of joint manipulation to detain is using hyper-extension and hyper-flexion to selectively apply and release pressure to "persuade" an opponnent to behave accordingly, even if it means setting them up for a strike which is many times a viable option..

The process of joint manipulation to disable is to take the hyper-extension or hyper-flexion to the level at which structural damge to the joint occurs in the form of torn ligaments, muscles & tendons; even to the point of joint seperation and dislocation.

While things such as arc, angle and pressure are important in both detaining and disabling, the difference lies in time and results. Frankly in the multi-attacker scenario mentioned time spent detaining an attacker is time spent losing. By the same token to use disabling manipulation takes no more time, in fact often less time, than locking and then striking, multi-tasking if you will. It's quicker, more powerful and frees up the defender to move on to the next threat. The results speak for themselves. Can the attacker continue to use their joint effectively after they are released?

Four options.
Lock to Detain
Lock to Throw
Lock to Strike
Lock to Disable

Choose wisely.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[bignick]

So BigNick, what you are saying is the intent should be to break or dislocate the joint, not to "control" it?

Not really, what I'm saying is that if this is truly a self defense situation and there are possibilities of multiple attackers you don't always have the liberty to detain someone. When I think "self defense" I think possibility of serious bodily harm, dark alleys, etc...not a schoolyard scuffle or a tiff in a barroom somewhere.

Pain compliance is fantastic, but I know guys that can lay their palm flat on their forearm, trying to detain someone like that in a joint lock is just gonna get you a smile from them as they're pounding you.

What I'm saying is, and I should have been more clear, is that restraint is not the only useful application of a joint locks and that you need to explore and think about using them for disabling joints as well.

 

[MJS]

Is training ourselves in joint locking really practical for a self defence application? Why or why not?

In my experience, locking really only comes into play when you have an element of surprise and already have contact, or are the physical superior in an engagement. In that regard, I don't see locking as being a huge factor if your goal is to gain range and boogie.

Now, not to say that there isn't value in training it - there's a ton of value in learning and understanding lock flow - I'm just wondering if there isn't a tendency to over value locking - to suppose that we might actually be able to subdue attackers with a joint lock.

What say you?

IMO, locks certainly have their place. Not every situation is going to warrant a knee break or something along those lines. The nice thing about locks, is that they can easily turn into a break, should that be the case. I dont think that we should set out to 'find' a lock, but instead take advantage of them as they present themselves.

Mike

 

[bignick]

I dont think that we should set out to 'find' a lock, but instead take advantage of them as they present themselves.

The same goes for pretty much any action.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Joint locking also known to Chinese martial artists as Qin Na.

Qin Na is described very much as bignick said, but the terminology I am use to says Joint locking, muscle and tendon tearing.

The Joint locking Qin Na is great for restraint, the muscle and tendon tearing is great for disabling. But you do have to be very good at hitting the mark correnctly and/or have strong hands. Many Chinese Qin Na master are incredibly strong. But it is not necessarily required; there are points that you do not have to apply much pressure to that can be quite painful.

I once went to a seminar on Qin Na and a person in the group asked the teacher "But what do you do after you have locked them" the teachers response, "kill them, Qin Na was made for war and if you lock someone and let them go they will kill you" The shocked person that asked the question said "but I don't want to kill anyone" teacher response "then be happy you don't live in ancient times"

Qin Na and/or Joint locking can be very serious, very destructive and as anyone who has been locked knows very painful.

The only martial arts book I ever read that made me cringe and stop reading was a Qin Na book.

 

[SAVAGE]

I think strong grips are important...not really strength, because you are forcing people outside the ROM using there own force. In HKD Fingertip (I mean Tips) push ups are required for grading..I can only hit about 125 right now...I got a long way to go!

 

[scottcatchot]

A strong grip and a decent understanding of body mechanics is the most important IMHO.

 

[kickcatcher]

Is training ourselves in joint locking really practical for a self defence application? Why or why not?

In my experience, locking really only comes into play when you have an element of surprise and already have contact, or are the physical superior in an engagement. In that regard, I don't see locking as being a huge factor if your goal is to gain range and boogie.

Now, not to say that there isn't value in training it - there's a ton of value in learning and understanding lock flow - I'm just wondering if there isn't a tendency to over value locking - to suppose that we might actually be able to subdue attackers with a joint lock.

What say you?

I'm inclined to agree. Locks are IMO not very reliable for restraint, and too complex to apply in a live situation, except against the poorest quality of aggressor. 3-on-1 bouncer scenarios are possibly another issue though.

 

[SAVAGE]

I'm inclined to agree. Locks are IMO not very reliable for restraint, and too complex to apply in a live situation, except against the poorest quality of aggressor. 3-on-1 bouncer scenarios are possibly another issue though.

hmmmm....arent you the same kickcatcher that was kicked off fightingarts for trolling?

 

[kickcatcher]

Possibly. I used to post on fighting arts and I don't think anyone else uses this nickname so yes. You're h2Whoa right? - long time no meet on the internet, at least not since you got banned from All-krotty and TMAX folded. I hope you're not intending to derail the thread. I'm intrigued to hear your input since you are a NHB fighter and all.