Locking

SAVAGE

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kickcatcher said:
Possibly. I used to post on fighting arts and I don't think anyone else uses this nickname so yes. You're h2Whoa right? - long time no meet on the internet, at least not since you got banned from All-krotty and TMAX folded. I hope you're not intending to derail the thread. I'm intrigued to hear your input since you are a NHB fighter and all. :)

I think you and ACA, know why I got kicked off All Karate! So has Bam or jones or whatever you are calling yourself still running All-Karate!
 

SAVAGE

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And FYI KICKYBOY....I am not a fighter I am a martial artist...there is a big difference!
 

kickcatcher

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No need to get angry with me dear fellow. Let's keep the thread on topic shall we.
 

Xue Sheng

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kickcatcher said:
I'm inclined to agree. Locks are IMO not very reliable for restraint, and too complex to apply in a live situation, except against the poorest quality of aggressor. 3-on-1 bouncer scenarios are possibly another issue though.

I tend to disagree, I have used them for restraint and they have worked very well. But I tended to use the simple ones not the complicated locks.
 

kickcatcher

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Xue Sheng said:
I tend to disagree, I have used them for restraint and they have worked very well. But I tended to use the simple ones not the complicated locks.
Which locks have you used? I know two competant martial artists who have each seperately applied text-book locks in an attempt to restrain someone and both times they have been unsuccessful even though the lock is fully applied. Similarly I've found th typical standing locks to be ineffective during alive training. I'm intrigued at which ones have worked for you and why/how.
 

Stan

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I love locks (they're great with bagels, but that's another kettle of fish).

Seriously though...

Both of the arts that I practice, Modern Arnis and Aikido, use them extensively.

I'd be interested to hear how people here who train in locks train in getting to the locks. Different arts have different approaches.

I first learned joint locks in a Modern Arnis class with a heavy emphasis on the Small Circle influence. Thus, I not only focused on the minutae of lock mechanics, I also worked on applying locks from various empty hand and stick exchanges. There are plenty of Arnisadors here who know how much fun it is to try to apply a lock while doing de Cadena trapping hands. I feel that this training has caused me to focus on "stickiness" and the anatomy of locks, so in training I often find a lock when I "feel" it, without having to look for it. If this makes sense.

Understanding joints, both objectively and subjectively, also helps with understanding joint locks. I spend a lot of idle time just stretching my joints, feeling their limits and thinking of what motions produce pain, immobilization, etc.

When I started Aikido after several years of Arnis, I was able to make most of the joint techniques "work" right away, even if I hadn't learned them in exactly the same form before, because of the training I described above.

Stan
 

Xue Sheng

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kickcatcher said:
Which locks have you used? I know two competant martial artists who have each seperately applied text-book locks in an attempt to restrain someone and both times they have been unsuccessful even though the lock is fully applied. Similarly I've found th typical standing locks to be ineffective during alive training. I'm intrigued at which ones have worked for you and why/how.

As I think about it I am not sure all would qualify as a lock, any I have learned can be classified a Qin Na. But a simple wristlock worked rather well, but then it was generally applied with the persons wrist flexed hand pointing down elbow up. If you are a trained martial artist it is rather easy to get out of, but most fortunately none were trained in martial artists, although one did claim to be a trained FBI killer. But then I never gave them time to flail around either; generally they are forced to the wall.

If they are already down the behind the back lock works too. Don’t get me wrong sometime they didn’t work and if you do not get them just right they will fail. Also if the person you are in a confrontation with has been on a 3-day beer and heroin bender locks don’t work well at all.

I use to work in security at a Hospital with a mental health and detox unit and the police would bring someone in hand cuffs in, put them in a room take off the cuffs and leave, this is generally not conducive to a peaceful and quiet day at work. I was for the most part able to talk people out of wanting to be violent but on occasion it just was not possible. With 200 incidents in 3 months, just on the shifts I worked and total for the place on all shifts was much greater you got pretty good a talking people out of what they were planning to do.

Also hitting is right out, that will get you in big big trouble so restraint and locks (Qin Na) were all you had really had if it got violent. This was also before pepper spray became legal to carry. I also was much better at push hands then (more practice) and redirection came in very handy.

Luckily I left there and went to work for the state in security and luckier yet I no longer work in physical security at all.
 

Cujo

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Im a LEO and so I use locks on a regular basis and have had no problem so far. However the intent is to restrain and capture the individual. If the encounter turns to a flat out physical assault against me then locks are out and I escalate the use of force as needed.
Pax
Cujo
 

kickcatcher

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Interesting last two posts. In some regards our positions on locks are closer than may first appear.

I am fully aware of the limitations placed upon LEOs and related work areas in terms of acceptable ways of restraining people. However, I look at the situation from a civilian in a self-defence situation and who lack the "authority" advantage often provided by being an LEO.

As you both make clear, locks have limited effect against someone really going for it. They only really fit into the scenario of restraint (*and blade disarms but let's not go there) - a situation which is rare for most civilians. The obvious advice is that if someone is going to attack you (as a civilian), do not attempt to restrain them unless you are confident of a MASSIVE physical advantage. That goes for intervening in other people's situations too.

In terms of restraint, there are four obvious options as I look at it:
1. Pinning against some immovable object (wall, floor etc)
2. Chokeholds
3. Arm locks etc
4. Verbal persuasion

Pinning is a viable option IMO provided you have reasonable grappling skill. One pin that I like but have never used for ‘real’ is to get a waist-lock type grip and barge/drag them into a wall. I am little but I can do it reasonably successfully against bigger people, though at least one of my old training partners is too big. Lol. Like most things it works best if you blindside them without warning.

Chokeholds are generally agreed to be the most effective, although not usually a permissible tactic for LE. I think that civilians trained in self-defence should utilise these as the primary physical restraint.

Locks, the subject of this thread, come in a poor third for effectiveness and forth for preference for me. Like other people with real world experience have pointed out, they are unreliable. In my opinion they are least reliable in the sorts of scenarios civilians are likely to find themselves in (i.e. drunk in a pub starting trouble).

Persuasion is obviously the preferred solution but inherently most limited in scope. It also normally requires a degree of intimidation which most people don’t have over an aggressor.

All in all, I’d say standing arm locks, particularly small joint manipulations, are of questionable relevance and effectiveness for the typical self-defence situation and in scenarios where they are relevant, there are usually far better options.

IMO.
 

DavidCC

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I think it is a mis-conception to say that joint locks rely on pain compliance.
 

kickcatcher

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Why? They do IMO unless you are talking purly about breaking which doesn't fit within "restraint" that we have been talking about these last few posts.
 

Rich Parsons

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Flatlander said:
Is training ourselves in joint locking really practical for a self defence application? Why or why not?

In my experience, locking really only comes into play when you have an element of surprise and already have contact, or are the physical superior in an engagement. In that regard, I don't see locking as being a huge factor if your goal is to gain range and boogie.

Now, not to say that there isn't value in training it - there's a ton of value in learning and understanding lock flow - I'm just wondering if there isn't a tendency to over value locking - to suppose that we might actually be able to subdue attackers with a joint lock.

What say you?

If the person is aware locks are easily countered.

If the person is too drunk or on drugs any pain compliance is non-existent.

Yet, I think it is very useful training. I have used them. Understanding them also make one aware of the body mechanics and also how to control and move an opponent.

Now as has been mentioned, about 3 on 1 bouncer training. This works, if and only if the bouncers are trained together in tactics that work with three on one. If they just all go for it, they get in their own way and also can get hurt as bad or worse. Haivng backup is great as this allows the person to think twice about attacking. Yet, in cases of extreme rage or so far into drugs there is no option of thinking. Putting more bodies on a person to control someone helps, but many times just makes them cared and react even more dangerously. If you walk, guide, move the person out, even while they are calling you every name in the book, they leave.
 

DavidCC

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kickcatcher said:
Why? They do IMO unless you are talking purly about breaking which doesn't fit within "restraint" that we have been talking about these last few posts.

I'm not any kind of expert in this, but I have learned that it is possible to immobilize a person through locked joints. Not because it hurts, but because their position/posture makes it impossible for them to have any type of leverage to resist the pressure you are applying. It might hurt, too, but that is NOT why they work.

You are face down, I'm standing over you, your arm is bent backwards, vertical, and I have twisted your wrist around, pressing your shoulder to the ground.

Some more experienced joint-lockers might be better able to explain this concept which I am only just learning to apply... my experience so far does not really enable to me to explain it very well yet, but I have felt it and can do it with some success. But basically the mis-alignment of your joints and disadvantge of your posture vs theirs makes it impossible for them to do any kind of practical maneuvers.

I hope somebody else can expand on this, sorry, I'm still at the "learning to do it" phase, not yet at the "teaching it" phase :)
 

tempus

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I train in Nihon Goshin Aikido and we use a lot of joint locks and throws. We also incorporate strikes to loosen up the attacker for such joint locks and throws. We train to bring pain on to a joint and then move to disable the joint depending on the situation. Hence, escalate the pain as the situation escalates. No need to break someone apart if not necessary.

Against multiple opponents we use the locked up opponent as a shield to block the other attackers. This allows us to defend against the other attacker or throw the locked up attacker into the other attackers and make a run for it.

I am sure all things change depending on the attackers mental capacity or if they were drug induced. This may call for more then locks.
 
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