Live Blade Training

[dearnis.com]

asking for trouble; this is no different than training firearm retention/disarming with loaded weapons/live ammo. In a drill context you can pull out some interesting and worthwhile concepts, but you get much more mileage with trainers.

 

[Emptyglass]

asking for trouble; this is no different than training firearm retention/disarming with loaded weapons/live ammo. In a drill context you can pull out some interesting and worthwhile concepts, but you get much more mileage with trainers.

Chad:

No argument there. Trainers are norm when I do blade work nowadays.

Rich Curren

 

[MJS]

And of course, you still want to have that aliveness aspect to the training as well. Granted, when you're training with a real blade its a little harder, but on the other hand, you dont want your 'attacker' just standing there while you do your disarm.

Mike

 

[kaliace]

I agree that aluminum trainers are a great way to compromise. You get the cold feel of the metal against skin without all that nasty blood and pain.



Traditionally though Live Blade training is not uncommon in the Philippines as I am sure you all know. It is a tradition. I know of Philippine men that were given a live blade to train with at the age of 6. What we think of as an unbelievable act, is just the normal course of a man’s life in the Philippines.



Again the trainers are a preferred method for training. Any live blade work should be left to individuals that have been working for many, many years with technique.



Respectfully,

Michael G Olive

 

[MJS]

I agree that aluminum trainers are a great way to compromise. You get the cold feel of the metal against skin without all that nasty blood and pain.



Traditionally though Live Blade training is not uncommon in the Philippines as I am sure you all know. It is a tradition. I know of Philippine men that were given a live blade to train with at the age of 6. What we think of as an unbelievable act, is just the normal course of a man’s life in the Philippines.



Again the trainers are a preferred method for training. Any live blade work should be left to individuals that have been working for many, many years with technique.



Respectfully,

Michael G Olive

Good point. And many of the Masters have the scars to prove it.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

I agree that aluminum trainers are a great way to compromise. You get the cold feel of the metal against skin without all that nasty blood and pain.



Traditionally though Live Blade training is not uncommon in the Philippines as I am sure you all know. It is a tradition. I know of Philippine men that were given a live blade to train with at the age of 6. What we think of as an unbelievable act, is just the normal course of a man’s life in the Philippines.



Again the trainers are a preferred method for training. Any live blade work should be left to individuals that have been working for many, many years with technique.



Respectfully,

Michael G Olive

Traditionally, live blade training was done...but not for sparring or live training.

For partner work, most used wooden carved daggers instead of live blades. Look at old pics of the Canete's for instance, and you'll see their wooden daga's in their left hand. Look at old videos of "Tatang" illustrisimo teaching at the park; he was clearly a blade player who used a stick to immulate his blade work.

You used wooden daggers for "play" in the old days. If you used a real blade, then you were no longer playing or even hard sparring; you were fighting to the death. And as to those masters with scars...I'll bet dollars to donuts that they didn't get those from "training."

The idea that in the olden days in the PI, that live training was all done with live blade, is a myth; an urban legend that us gullible americans are supposed to eat up.

"If you do that, he will be cut already!" - Prof. Remy A. Presas

"If you play with a knife like that, someone'll get killed." Manong Ted Buot

PAUL

 

[MJS]

You used wooden daggers for "play" in the old days. If you used a real blade, then you were no longer playing or even hard sparring; you were fighting to the death. And as to those masters with scars...I'll bet dollars to donuts that they didn't get those from "training."

Never said that. When referring to the scars, I was talking about the fights that they had, not training sessions. I would still think though that they'd do some training with live blades to get that feeling. No wodden knife is going to give the same feel or get the same reaction of a real blade.

Mike

 

[Emptyglass]

Traditionally, live blade training was done...but not for sparring or live training.

Paul:

I don't believe this is true for every FMA instructor in the PI (or even in the US). Perhaps some did and perhaps some didn't. However, to state that it traditionally wasn't done is probably speculation at best. I would think that each instructor taught in this manner at their own discretion and according to how they were taught by their own instructors.

Personally I've been told some do/did use live blades from beginning to end and some never do/did, and some mix it up. In my opinion (which is just that) I would think it varied immensely.

Rich Curren

 

[Emptyglass]

Traditionally though Live Blade training is not uncommon in the Philippines as I am sure you all know. It is a tradition. I know of Philippine men that were given a live blade to train with at the age of 6. What we think of as an unbelievable act, is just the normal course of a man’s life in the Philippines.

Michael:

This makes sense to me as knives are used more commonly in Filipino day-to-day life than they are in the major population centers of the US (according to the Filipinos I have spoken with on the subject) where modern American life has made hand tools much less necessary. Working in the fields, getting coconuts, fishing, opening bottles (of beer as well - if anyone out there knows what I mean by this in relation to tin roofs let me know), etc... all use a blade of one sort or another.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Cruentus]

"This makes sense to me as knives are used more commonly in Filipino day-to-day life."

I agree that there is more general usage of the blade in the PI, and more of a blade culture there. kaliace said that "traditionally live blade training is not uncommon in the PI" not live blade use.

I don't know to what degree live blade training is done in every area of the PI. I do know that a lot of credable masters don't advocate it. I think that more don't do it then you think, making the idea that "most instructors in the PI do live blade partner work" a myth.

I also think that it isn't necissary. There are enough trainers out there that are realistic enough to where you don't need live blade for partner work. Plus, you can tape the blade if its live, as I have done before, to make it more safe. It is necessary to do live blade training for drawing and target cutting. It isn't nesissary to go steel to steel for partner work, or sparring. Not only is it not nessesary, but I think it actually hurts your training because then your partner will not cut at you realistically, for fear that they'll actually cut you.

You all can say what you want, this is just my opinion.

:asian:

 

[Emptyglass]

"I think that more don't do it then you think, making the idea that "most instructors in the PI do live blade partner work" a myth.
:asian:

I never said most or even many do this type of training regularly (I really don't know much beyond my own experiences and contacts, there are many, many styles of Arnis out there I know nothing about), just that what is traditional and what is not is open to debate. I think there are a lot of traditions out there in FMA and none of them is right or wrong.

"
You all can say what you want, this is just my opinion.
:asian:

As is everything we all are saying as well. Many times the facts that people hold very dear are open to more than one interpretation depending on who witnessed events, when they witnessed them or whether they were present at all. The best someone who wasn't there can do is try to make the most likely conclusion from the information which they have available and choose to accept as the truth.

Rich Curren

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I do live blade cutting and thrusting drills on stationary and moving targets. Generally speaking I feel that interactive drill will a live blade is asking for trouble. I have done it, but with a very small and select group of people who I trust and whom trust me.

:asian:

 

[Sun_Helmet]

One should mention Medical Management Training in the same breath as Live Blade Training. If not, then the training is incomplete and irresponsible.
Be advised.

No Live Blade training should be conducted without a third party (ies) witness, someone with medical experience (and the appropriate medical kit) with the type of injuries that WILL come with such practice, vehicle / emergency room plan...etc.


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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[Datu Tim Hartman]

One should mention Medical Management Training in the same breath as Live Blade Training. If not, then the training is incomplete and irresponsible.
Be advised.

No Live Blade training should be conducted without a third party (ies) witness, someone with medical experience (and the appropriate medical kit) with the type of injuries that WILL come with such practice, vehicle / emergency room plan...etc.


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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Agreed. :asian:

 

[Cruentus]

I can assure you that my knife work is no better from my live blade partner work that I have done in the past. How much do you want to bet that my knife work would be no better or worse from live blade partner work if I were to do it in the in the future?

If your training effectively in the first place, then the same is true for all of you.

 

[Cruentus]

sorry...miss post.

 

[Cthulhu]

I personally do not advocate live blade training...mainly because if my wife were to ever find out that I had tried it, she'd kill me.

Cthulhu

 

[Rich Parsons]

I train with a live blade solo.

In partner drills I use trainers. I do not believe the intent is there from the training partner with a live blade.

I know others have said the same.

Just giving my opinion as well.

:asian:

 

[kaliace]

"


I don't know to what degree live blade training is done in every area of the PI. I do know that a lot of credable masters don't advocate it. I think that more don't do it then you think, making the idea that "most instructors in the PI do live blade partner work" a myth.
-But have the masters experienced this during their own training?

What I really find interesting with this is the thought about the training blades. Yes they are a superb way to train and I use them myself. It seems like there is one key point that is being missed. When you train with a blunt knife you know you will not be cut. Your mind knows that so you can work the technique until you have it as a permanent part of your being. When you work the same technique with a live blade then your mind is on overdrive, Adrenaline pumping, the works. It brings that FEAR of being cut into the mix; if you can overcome that fear then your training will be that much more complete.


Now before I get ripped apart here, I want to make sure I am very clear on this. You should not try any live blade training unless you are very skilled in the varying techniques, and the person you are working with is also well trained. This is very dangerous, no question, but it can be a great tool to complete your training

Respectfully,
Michael G Olive
www.rattanclub.com

 

[arnisandyz]

No thanks.

I like what tulisan said, about it actually hindering training because the knife person has to now be 'careful' not to seriously injure the other person or each other if they both have knives. I can see it as a demo gimmick - we've all seen it...cut a piece of paper to show its a live blade and start knife tapping, but for actual training I'd rather use training blades or a marker and go 8/10ths vs live and go 4/10ths.

What everybody said about solo training is right on too.

Andy