Leung Ting Comparison

[Nicholas82555]

I've heard just about all the stories about LT and his Dead President making machine. I'll be the judge of the negative side of the house.

All I want to know is how does the LT system compare to other WC,VT systems as far as training and effectiveness?

 

[El_Nastro]

I've heard just about all the stories about LT and his Dead President making machine. I'll be the judge of the negative side of the house.

All I want to know is how does the LT system compare to other WC,VT systems as far as training and effectiveness?

I've done LT & Ip Ching WC, and they're the same system. The differences lie in the fact that every WC practioner puts his own spin on certain things, and has his own way of applying the principles. Depending on the practioner, certain things are emphasized, other things are de-emphasized. The difference between LT, Ip Ching & probably LT & any other Ip Man-branch (excluding William Cheung) reflect nothing more than the head-instructor's personal expression.

That being said, LT's WC seems to me to be slightly more focused on aggressively powering through your opponent and beating the snot out of him with a blitz chainpunch attack, & Ip Ching puts more emphasis on controlling the opponent and only launching into "beat-down" mode once you have control of the situation and there's a definite hole in the opponent's structure.

But these differences are very, very slight in degree. At the end of the day, they're the same system. If you choose an LT school, rest assured that you're not missing out on anything vs. another school. (excluding William Cheung, of course.)

 

[Vajramusti]

Huge differences between LT's, Ip Chun's wc and what I do.But I don't care to argue.

joy chaudhuri

 

[El_Nastro]

Huge differences between LT's, Ip Chun's wc and what I do.But I don't care to argue.

joy chaudhuri

I guess it depends on your definition of what does and does not constitute a "huge difference".

The point I was trying to make is that if the dude decides to take LT WC in lieu of some other branch (excluding William Cheung!), ultimately he's not going to be missing out on any key concepts or principles, at least not as far as I know.

Personally, LT's WC is my least favorite. I prefer Ip Ching's WC, & from what I've seen of Wong Shun Leung's WC, I like that better than LT's as well. But it all goes back to the same source. Each of those guys has made a few tweaks to the system, & each has put his own spin on it, but it's all Ip Man WC. Regardless of what branch you learn, by the time you finish learning all the forms you'll be able to put your own spin on it.

 

[Nicholas82555]

I like your analysis. My first exposure to the WC system will be in a few weeks under Sifu Kenneth Chung/Ben Der out of Stanford University/San Jose. I look forward to this lifetime commitment.

 

[El_Nastro]

I like your analysis. My first exposure to the WC system will be in a few weeks under Sifu Kenneth Chung/Ben Der out of Stanford University/San Jose. I look forward to this lifetime commitment.

Right on man. I just looked up "Sifu Kenneth Chung", & it looks like he's a student of Leung Sheung. Leung Sheung was one of Ip Man's first students, & the man who taught Leung Ting. (LT says Ip Man taught him, and that's sort of true, but really it was Leung Sheung who taught LT). Looks like you probably found a good school. Have fun!

 

[dosk3n]

I dont really know much about LT style as my sifu trained under both Ip Chun and Ip Ching but we have recently had a student join who trained under a LT style WC and when we were doing some free style pad work he was getting me to try some stuff that they would do.

I agree with what was said before it is a very forward and beat the shizle straight of your oponent style. Lot of power put into it.

I can see some advantages in it but it is not the style I learn and I guess it wasnt for him wither since he has changed school.

Im not putting the style down at all please dont get me wrong there all I am saying is what was said already that it is the individuals spin on the style and at the end of the day once youve learnt it you put your own spin on it.

If thats whats available do it as it may be the right style for you as a person. Then again it may not. Its all taste but you will never find out without taking that first step.

 

[El_Nastro]

I dont really know much about LT style as my sifu trained under both Ip Chun and Ip Ching but we have recently had a student join who trained under a LT style WC and when we were doing some free style pad work he was getting me to try some stuff that they would do.

I agree with what was said before it is a very forward and beat the shizle straight of your oponent style. Lot of power put into it.

I can see some advantages in it but it is not the style I learn and I guess it wasnt for him wither since he has changed school.

Im not putting the style down at all please dont get me wrong there all I am saying is what was said already that it is the individuals spin on the style and at the end of the day once youve learnt it you put your own spin on it.

If thats whats available do it as it may be the right style for you as a person. Then again it may not. Its all taste but you will never find out without taking that first step.

Did you see the Fight Quest episode about Wing Chun? The guys learned from Leung Ting & his students. Here's how it went down: At the end of the episode when it was time to fight, both the Fight Quest guy and the Leung Ting student ran straight at each other and basically tried to out-chainpunch the other guy.

They just sort of ran into each other throwing chain punches as fast and as hard as they could, which is the typical Leung Ting approach.

My problem with this approach is: what's the point of all that chi sau practice if you're not even going to try to use any of it? If the only thing you do is try to overwhelm your opponent with punches, why bother to do chi sau at all?

If someone's coming at you with a berserker barrage of punches, I think there's better ways to handle it than to try to out-punch your opponent. For example, you could wedge a wu sau man sau into your opponents punches, and once you make contact, actually use some of that chi sau practice to gain control of the situation, and then open up with a barrage of punches.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Leung Ting students tend to rely heavily on outspeeding their opponent. The teachers and students that I have trained with previously have been extremely quick, but lacked conviction in their punches and 'cleverness' which usually comes wit wing chun techniques (such as outpositioning your opponent etc). Im not saying the WT system is rubbish, just that it adopts a slightly different fighting tactic than other chun schools

I think Bosteppi has mentioned this previously

 

[yak sao]

The approach of WT as I understand it (having studied it now for 15 years) is if we can hit, we hit.
As with all WC, we strive for economy of motion, why use 2 moves when 1 will suffice. we don't stick with our opponent for the sake of sticking when chainpunching will take care of the problem. Chainpunching is not the only tool in our toolbelt, but a good carpenter can do masterful work with a minimum of tools. and more often than not, chainpunching is all that's needed.

As for the fight quest show, that was simply a tournament type situation, that is not how we lat sao (spar).

 

[geezer]

Leung Ting students tend to rely heavily on outspeeding their opponent. The teachers and students that I have trained with previously have been extremely quick, but lacked conviction in their punches and 'cleverness' which usually comes wit wing chun techniques (such as outpositioning your opponent etc). Im not saying the WT system is rubbish, just that it adopts a slightly different fighting tactic than other chun schools

I think Bosteppi has mentioned this previously

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the WT system ... although not a fan of my former sifu LT himself. However, there is a lot of variation in the way the different WT groups are taught. Our "VT" (no longer associated with LT in any way!) group emphasis good technique, speed and power. I'm not the fastest guy around, and am a bit smaller than average, so I have to put "conviction" into my punches. Also, I should note that beginners and intemediates are taught agressiveness and simple approaches like blitzing. As you become more adept at chi-sau, I believe that the WT system becomes very soft. It's good stuff. Just find the right teacher... whatever lineage you pick.

 

[Nicholas82555]

All points well taken. The only issue I now have with this straight forward blitz as one said, why the chi sau and other techniques, why punch for punch (the object is to hit and get hit as less as possible if at all). Lastly, if I know this is ur main staple of attack ur in trouble. Other systems I've trained in would simple side step and u catch what u thought u had for me from the blind side whether its a kick or punch. Remember ur not the only speedster on the block, so the total package would be in order. I don't care how fast a person is, timing will u everytime.

A convicted attack is better than a few fast punches. I mentioned an earlier thread the WC men from HK in Mas Oyama's 1st World Tournament who had their heads handed to them. Although their techniques were poor, there was absolutely no conviction in throung a powerful solid blow even when the Kyokushin man stood there right in front of them..sigh Give me a break)

 

[Xue Sheng]

intemediates are taught agressiveness and simple approaches like blitzing. As you become more adept at chi-sau, I believe that the WT system becomes very soft. It's good stuff. Just find the right teacher... whatever lineage you pick.

This is not an on topic response but I wanted to make a comment on this.

I recently crossed hands with a man who has been in Wing Chun for many years and was a student of Augustine Fong and I have to tell you in simple tuishou he felt a lot like my taiji Sifu. However in application he was very different, which is to be expected. I must say I was rather impressed at the relaxed nature of his tuishou (Chi-sau).

 

[hunt1]

All wing chun shares a common dictionary of movements and concepts. William cheungs is no different it just comes at things from a different pov. still uses tan bong etc.

In general differences are due to personal understandings of how things should be done.

The crucial difference that makes different styles of wing chun truly different is the use and understanding of body mechanics, This is the core of wing chun and there is a vast range of differences.

 

[mook jong man]

The Chi Sau is only for when your strikes are being obstructed or blocked , if they are not being obstructed then there is no need for Chi Sau.

As long as you have a good stance to transmit the force through to your arms then chain punching combined with wrist latching is a very effective method to put the opponent on the defensive and off balance.

As for trying to side step the attack this may only be possible if he has started attacking from out of range and has telegraphed his intentions.

Most likely the attack will be launched either from kicking range or from one step away combined with a guard entering technique so that he has control of your lead arm.

If you try to side step after he has contact with your arms then the hours of Chi Sau practice will come into play and he will detect your weight shift and adjust his stance accordingly to face you usually while latching you back in so you can't get away.

Most Wing Chun systems have techniques for striking to the immediate sides with a pivot anyway so it is not really a drama if somehow the opponent manages to luckily avoid a non telegraphic centreline punch.

Most can't even block them when you stand in front of them and tell them you are going to punch , because they are so directly aimed and made with no pre-movement whatsoever or thats the way they should be anyway , its even hard for us Wing Chun guys to see them coming and we deal with them all the time.

There are ways to nullify chain punching using Tan / Bong etc but it does require a fair bit of speed and skill.

I have side stepped chain punching before when it was too fast and powerful for me to deflect with Tan / Bong but It was combined with sticking hands technique and footwork from the wooden dummy.

At least this way you still have contact with his arms so you can (A) Sense his intentions (B) Reduce to zero the chance of his closest arm attacking you from the side as you step around to the blindside.

Of course as you step around you should also be sticking to his arm with an appropriate technique ( I try to time it so I deflect his punch with a Tan Sau on the outside of his arm as I step to the side).

So it would be my right hand Tan Sau to the outside of his right arm punch) while simultaneously striking either up high to the head or down low with a palm strike to the kidneys with my other hand.

 

[Nicholas82555]

I love drawing this wealth of knowledge from all of u WC men This will give a solid foundation stepping into this system for the 1st. I'm not a political on any plane, I just want what is pratical, grounded and effective. Time is a non issue because when a person attacks he should want to be felt and not because he just happened to get an unexpected cheap shot it))

 

[mook jong man]

I love drawing this wealth of knowledge from all of u WC men This will give a solid foundation stepping into this system for the 1st. I'm not a political on any plane, I just want what is pratical, grounded and effective. Time is a non issue because when a person attacks he should want to be felt and not because he just happened to get an unexpected cheap shot it))

I am not from Leung Ting lineage by the way , I am from TST line but I imagine the techniques and tactics would probably be universal and used in most Wing Chun systems .
You train long enough and from trial and error you find that they are just common sense .

 

[geezer]

I am not from Leung Ting lineage by the way , I am from TST line but I imagine the techniques and tactics would probably be universal and used in most Wing Chun systems .
You train long enough and from trial and error you find that they are just common sense .

Well, I don't know if they all illustrate common sense, but everything I've seen you post, Mook, makes a lot of sense to me. It definitely makes me want to learn more about how the TST lineage does WC.

 

[bully]

When I first learnt WC I wasnt aware there were any different lineages!!

It was early 90's when the net was in its infancy for normal people.

I had the book with Ip Chun on the front and what it said/showed was pretty much how I had been taught, so I thought that was it!! How wrong I was ;-)

Only since getting back into WC and coming on here etc, do I now know about the different flavours. From a personal perspective I would try all of them if I could. I think of course it is wise to train in one as a base, even if you dont "agree" with some of what you see or do in another there is always ideas to take onboard. In our WC life we may have to change lineages too, due to moving away, falling out with sifu, etc etc.

Going on from what Geezer said in the other thread, the advantage with coming on here is respect for each others lineages. There is another board I go on, I dont post much and it sometimes makes me want to give up WC!! They bash it so much, and it is a WC forum!!!

 

[mook jong man]

Well, I don't know if they all illustrate common sense, but everything I've seen you post, Mook, makes a lot of sense to me. It definitely makes me want to learn more about how the TST lineage does WC.

Yeah thats the problem with common sense , sometimes its not all that common .