Let's talk about Tan Sau
- Thread starter Marnetmar
- Start date
In my understanding....... "Tan" means "to spread." So it engages and the deflects energy away. It is not a hard block or a barrier. So I wouldn't use it to cover my head. I don't do it parallel to the ground because how are you going to deflect or "spread" something if it can just slide under your arm? There has to be some angling off of the horizontal for it to work. This may only be 15 degrees, or it might be close to 80 degrees as Phil is showing in the pic above. It depends on the circumstance. It typically deflects or "spreads" outward. But I think it can deflect inward as well. Sometimes people give this its own name....an "upper Gan Sau" or "high Gan Sau"....I've seen some consider it a "Jum Sau" even though it doesn't always have a downward pressing aspect.
The "Tan Sau shape" can also "swallow" or absorb as it deflects. I know in Chu Sau Lei WCK they still call this a "Tan Sau". In Pin Sun Wing Chun we call this a "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand" and it is featured in several of our San Sik. It is just the "yin" to the typical Tan Sau's "yang." It withdraws back rather than going forward. Some Wing Chun lineages don't seem to have this at all. Pin Sun uses it just as much as the typical Tan Sau.
The "Tan Sau shape" can also "swallow" or absorb as it deflects. I know in Chu Sau Lei WCK they still call this a "Tan Sau". In Pin Sun Wing Chun we call this a "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand" and it is featured in several of our San Sik. It is just the "yin" to the typical Tan Sau's "yang." It withdraws back rather than going forward. Some Wing Chun lineages don't seem to have this at all. Pin Sun uses it just as much as the typical Tan Sau.
Cephalopod
Green Belt
I think Marnetmar was referring to the angle of the hand, not of the forearm.
Of the 4 pics, I would say that the 2nd is the optimal angle (imagine that...I heard dude had pretty good wing chun!). It covers good ground vertically, is resistant to collapsing and the angle between forearm and upper arm will remain unchanged as it is rolled into bong sau.
I'd say anything on the inside of the arm, such as gan sau, falls more within the fuk sau family of concepts, rather than the tan sau family. That being said, the position is very tan-like, the intention is subtly different.
Our training uses this but I would replace the "withdraws back" by "is driven back". Forward intention always remains.
I'd say anything on the inside of the arm, such as gan sau, falls more within the fuk sau family of concepts, rather than the tan sau family. That being said, the position is very tan-like, the intention is subtly different.
---You can "spread" or deflect in any direction....outward or inward. "Fook" means "subdue." It covers or controls something, it doesn't "spread." I've never quite held with the whole "3 families of hand techniques....Tan, Bong, & Fook" approach, even when I was doing Ip Man WCK. Pin Sun WCK doesn't think of that way.
Our training uses this but I would replace the "withdraws back" by "is driven back". Forward intention always remains
----Yeah, like I said before, most Ip Man Wing Chun does not use the concept of "Tun" or "swallow." That's one of the distinctive differences between Pin Sun and Ip Man WCK. Pin Sun uses a deeper pivot and "sucks things in" at least as much as it "pushes things away." Ip Man WCK mostly "pushes things away."
---You can "spread" or deflect in any direction....outward or inward. "Fook" means "subdue." It covers or controls something, it doesn't "spread." I've never quite held with the whole "3 families of hand techniques....Tan, Bong, & Fook" approach, even when I was doing Ip Man WCK. Pin Sun WCK doesn't think of that way.
Our training uses this but I would replace the "withdraws back" by "is driven back". Forward intention always remains
----Yeah, like I said before, most Ip Man Wing Chun does not use the concept of "Tun" or "swallow." That's one of the distinctive differences between Pin Sun and Ip Man WCK. Pin Sun uses a deeper pivot and "sucks things in" at least as much as it "pushes things away." Ip Man WCK mostly "pushes things away."
paitingman
Brown Belt
recently saw an interesting video from Jerry Yeung. thought this would be a good place to throw it up.
In the first half of the video, he talks about basic tan concepts, training, and use.
DanT
2nd Black Belt
Tan = to spread as the punch is deflected using not only one point on your arm, but rather the force spreads down 2-3 inches along your arm as your arm moves forward. This means that the incoming blow does not impact your arm at a sole point, but rather its impact is spread over 2-3 inches via pushing the arm forward at the elbow and shoulder. This is what allows you to deflect powerful blows.
Tan sau is king! Woks well against western boxing style hooks. Absorb the hook, spread their hand just enough to counter off the same hand, while your other hand is still blocking. My go to against someone unloading a series of hooks. If your saw the recent UFC with RDA vs Lawler. RDA was unloading on lawler up against the fence, Lawler was moving well, rolling with the shots. But, I was screaming at him to use tan sau to open RDA up and counter - easier said than done though against a beast like RDA!
This is also true of the WT/VT I train. If you go back to the old kung-fu saying, Fou, chum, tun, tou or Float, sink, swallow, spit, --rising and sinking of the body is employed, but is minimized and hardly visible. Lower level students are not even aware of these movements. And in my branch, we try to maintain forward intent all the time, so we avoid withdrawing. inward-pulling or "swallowing" movements.
So KPM, am I OK in quoting you to say that, unlike what I train, your PS Wing Chun sucks?
!!!
The WC Tan Shou is very similar to the XingYi Zuan Chuan. The difference is palm vs. fist.
This WC move is also very similar to the XingYi dragon.
This WC move is also very similar to the XingYi dragon.
Cephalopod
Green Belt
Of course, every rule is made to be broken...sometimes.
(and I can't speak for YMWC, only the Jiu Wan step-sister style that I practice)
If my tan encounters an arm that is truly stiff, I can (sometimes) use the crook behind my thumb to draw the opponent onto his toes before launching a counter-offensive.
But I would rarely try that with a more skilled (well-balanced) opponent who could get behind my movement and collapse my tan sau if I draw it inward.
Generally, when the fists start flying, I'm safer if all my movements have some residual forward intention and if the contact point moves closer to my body it's because the opponent's force drove it there.
So KPM, am I OK in quoting you to say that, unlike what I train, your PS Wing Chun sucks?
Sucks and spits!!!
I'm working on an essay and will probably do a youtube clip about the "Sei Ging" or "4 energies" (Rise, Sink, Swallow, Spit) and how Wing Chun (at least Pin Sun Wing Chun) adds two more to make it "Luk Ging" or "6 energies." The two additional ones being "rotate in" and "rotate out."
If my tan encounters an arm that is truly stiff, I can (sometimes) use the crook behind my thumb to draw the opponent onto his toes before launching a counter-offensive.
But I would rarely try that with a more skilled (well-balanced) opponent who could get behind my movement and collapse my tan sau if I draw it inward.
Generally, when the fists start flying, I'm safer if all my movements have some residual forward intention and if the contact point moves closer to my body it's because the opponent's force drove it there.
----In contrast, here is an example of something we might do in Pin Sun Wing Chun. Imagine standing facing an opponent both with left arms extended touching at the back of the wrist. If the opponent suddenly shoots the hand forward as a punch, the typical Ip Man Wing Chun approach might be to pivot and send the left hand forward as a Tan Sau to deflect the punch as you do your own punch over his arm. You would probably even step into the opponent's center while doing this. This is using forward pressure to presses the opponent to off-balance him. Pin Sun Wing Chun may do this at times as well. But........in Pin Sun Wing Chun we may be just as likely to let the opponent's hand shoot forward and just guide it in and deflect it slightly outward with a withdrawing Tun Sau as we do a deeper pivot and slam him with a punch or palm strike below his punching arm. There is much less "force to force" involved here. We aren't "pushing" the punch away with a Tan Sau, we are "sucking" the punch in with a Tun Sau. This can off-balance the opponent right into the strike. So the attitude in Ip Man Wing Chun is somewhat....forward pressure....take their space...put them back on their heels. While the attitude in Pin Sun Wing Chun is more....be evasive....get the angle...pull them in....put them up on their toes.
But I would rarely try that with a more skilled (well-balanced) opponent who could get behind my movement and collapse my tan sau if I draw it inward.
Generally, when the fists start flying, I'm safer if all my movements have some residual forward intention and if the contact point moves closer to my body it's because the opponent's force drove it there.
----In contrast, here is an example of something we might do in Pin Sun Wing Chun. Imagine standing facing an opponent both with left arms extended touching at the back of the wrist. If the opponent suddenly shoots the hand forward as a punch, the typical Ip Man Wing Chun approach might be to pivot and send the left hand forward as a Tan Sau to deflect the punch as you do your own punch over his arm. You would probably even step into the opponent's center while doing this. This is using forward pressure to presses the opponent to off-balance him. Pin Sun Wing Chun may do this at times as well. But........in Pin Sun Wing Chun we may be just as likely to let the opponent's hand shoot forward and just guide it in and deflect it slightly outward with a withdrawing Tun Sau as we do a deeper pivot and slam him with a punch or palm strike below his punching arm. There is much less "force to force" involved here. We aren't "pushing" the punch away with a Tan Sau, we are "sucking" the punch in with a Tun Sau. This can off-balance the opponent right into the strike. So the attitude in Ip Man Wing Chun is somewhat....forward pressure....take their space...put them back on their heels. While the attitude in Pin Sun Wing Chun is more....be evasive....get the angle...pull them in....put them up on their toes.
Cephalopod
Green Belt
Actually, my response would be very close to what you describe as the Pin Sun way, but with a subtle distinction. The 'withdrawing' effect is powered by his movement, not my own. By wanting to go forward but not forcing the issue, my tan sau is driven backward. If you like, the withdrawing movement is passive not active. It is a subtle difference, but to us a very important one.
Coupling that 'withdrawl' with a very slight rotation, his power will bypass my center, as you describe. Thier own commitment of power will put them on thier toes.
What we strive to do (coming out of "WT") is to maintain forward intent, but in a very light and yielding way so we can seem to give way and draw-in an aggressive attacker without actually pulling him into us. After all, pulling your opponent in has certain liabilities.
...Perhaps it's kind of a middle path between always sending force aggressively outward and pulling your opponent in?
...Perhaps it's kind of a middle path between always sending force aggressively outward and pulling your opponent in?
When you pull your opponent into you, your opponent will have 3 options:
1. Resist against you,
2. Yield into you,
3. Yield into you but change into a 90 degree angle.
IMO, 3 > 2 > 1
When I pull my opponent, I like to move myself out of the way. My opponent will be pulled into the emptiness instead.
Agree!
A + B > A
A punch should not be just a punch. A punch should be a punch followed by a pull.
Here is an example.
Martial D
Senior Master
When you hear the word "Tan Sau," what comes to mind? How do you like to use it? Does your tan sau form a straight line with your forearm, or is it parallel to the ground? Do you keep a bend in your elbow? Do you use it to cover your head?
Already a lot of theorycrafting in this thread so I'll leave that out. I'll tell you how it works for me and an example of when I might use it.
Elbow and wrist aligned in tight to center, palm up like you are holding a plate.
Standing grappling, at grabby punchy range. Say he gets his right free and tries a hockey punch, I just turn my left over into a tan to force it outside(which is very quick and instinctive to do anyway) and either naturally catch the head that is moving toward me or throw some sort of strike with the tan hand.
paitingman
Brown Belt
In the video I posted earlier Jerry Yeung talked about between the shoulders.
Tan is used to spread energy and deflect attacks coming in. To me, this really does seem to be not limited, but most effective against attack where your opponents striking elbow is between your shoulders. I think there's better techniques for attacks coming from outside your center of mass. You can use tan to stop a hook, but it's just that. There's no "spreading" a decent hook. But not everyone goes strictly by the "spread" definition.
Tan is used to spread energy and deflect attacks coming in. To me, this really does seem to be not limited, but most effective against attack where your opponents striking elbow is between your shoulders. I think there's better techniques for attacks coming from outside your center of mass. You can use tan to stop a hook, but it's just that. There's no "spreading" a decent hook. But not everyone goes strictly by the "spread" definition.
