Lee Morrison/Kelly McCann street fight seminar

[GreenieMeanie]

I don't think you do. I think that is essentially the end of their technical discussion. With mabye a "lift your elbow higher" or something.

And then you will go drill that on pads. And mabye wack a red man around.

There is kind of a movement now that timing is superior to technique. And they are not applying timing to that at all.

From what I remember of going over this stuff, there is more to the technical discussion.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I don't think you do. I think that is essentially the end of their technical discussion. With mabye a "lift your elbow higher" or something.

And then you will go drill that on pads. And mabye wack a red man around.

There is kind of a movement now that timing is superior to technique. And they are not applying timing to that at all.

With limited exception, timing seems to be more a competition concept.

 

[drop bear]

From what I remember of going over this stuff, there is more to the technical discussion.

Yeah. Which an inefficient use of seminar time because everyone is just kind of going to throw how they throw.

And a sloppy forearm thrown from the right place at the right time is better than a perfect forearm thrown from directly in front of the guy. From in range and with no back up plan if they don't curl up and die from it.

Now if you have tried to hit that live.(wab was mentioning it with simunitions.) You will develop that nuance of where you can get away with things and where you can't.

Now I tend to spend my seminar money on guys who have put that work in.

 

[drop bear]

With limited exception, timing seems to be more a competition concept.

Correct. But that is a failing on the RSBD culture.

And a massive failure.

If you go find a MMA fighter who mabye has a year to your whatever. And he murders you. It is those functional gaps he is exploiting.

Fast forward to 7:28 and the critique is the same. These basic functional gaps in development.

Kit dale on timing.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Correct. But that is a failing on the RSBD culture.

And a massive failure.

If you go find a MMA fighter who mabye has a year to your whatever. And he murders you. It is those functional gaps he is exploiting.

Fast forward to 7:28 and the critique is the same. These basic functional gaps in development.

Kit dale on timing.

You....do know the difference between dueling and instantaneous street-fighting?

 

[wab25]

I just watched it again. I don't see the issues you see. The movements are still generally correct from what's shown, and he just doesn't emphasize the distinction importance of the individual motions when showing them in those few seconds.

Its not a matter of emphasis. He did not take down the guy with the gun... instead he played tug of war with the guys arm... the arm that was holding the gun. He did not get behind the gun, he stayed in front of it. He never got fully offline. He did in fact, wave his hand and arm in front of the barrel after making his initial move... this is when the gun is being fired. He does impulse back into the gun, when it is at his back, before he moves.

You don't have to see it. Get an airsoft gun and you will feel it.

Drop Bear is making the point that you need to be in the right place at the right time, to strike and not be hit back. This also, or more importantly, applies to gun disarms. Being in front of and inline with the gun, is not the best place to struggle over the other guys arm.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Yeah. Which an inefficient use of seminar time because everyone is just kind of going to throw how they throw.

And a sloppy forearm thrown from the right place at the right time is better than a perfect forearm thrown from directly in front of the guy. From in range and with no back up plan if they don't curl up and die from it.

Now if you have tried to hit that live.(wap was mentioning it with simunitions.) You will develop that nuance of where you can get away with things and where you can't.

Now I tend to spend my seminar money on guys who have put that work in.

Its not a matter of emphasis. He did not take down the guy with the gun... instead he played tug of war with the guys arm... the arm that was holding the gun. He did not get behind the gun, he stayed in front of it. He never got fully offline. He did in fact, wave his hand and arm in front of the barrel after making his initial move... this is when the gun is being fired. He does impulse back into the gun, when it is at his back, before he moves.

You don't have to see it. Get an airsoft gun and you will feel it.

Drop Bear is making the point that you need to be in the right place at the right time, to strike and not be hit back. This also, or more importantly, applies to gun disarms. Being in front of and inline with the gun, is not the best place to struggle over the other guys arm.

There's a number of things I could say, point by point, but what it would ultimately come back to is---you do realize that this is not the full footage?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Drop Bear is making the point that you need to be in the right place at the right time, to strike and not be hit back. This also, or more importantly, applies to gun disarms. Being in front of and inline with the gun, is not the best place to struggle over the other guys arm.

That is what I meant by "with limited exception."

 

[drop bear]

You....do know the difference between dueling and instantaneous street-fighting?

Yes. The difference is there is no difference. That is a marketing ploy.

If you choose to duel. Which I do these days. You may still wind up in the pocket trying to work from a bad position. And you need the ability to deal with that.

If you are an instantaneous street fighter and the other guy does this secret street fighting trick called taking a backwards step. Then you need to have the tools to deal with that.

Now I duel because I have developed those skills of timing and entries and footwork. And so can employ them instead of being able to eat punches.

Which if we are talking efficiency is better in the long run.

(And this isn't an either or debate. Having an iron chin and cardio for days. Doesn't mean it still isn't better to move away from punches.)

 

[drop bear]

Its not a matter of emphasis. He did not take down the guy with the gun... instead he played tug of war with the guys arm... the arm that was holding the gun. He did not get behind the gun, he stayed in front of it. He never got fully offline. He did in fact, wave his hand and arm in front of the barrel after making his initial move... this is when the gun is being fired. He does impulse back into the gun, when it is at his back, before he moves.

You don't have to see it. Get an airsoft gun and you will feel it.

Drop Bear is making the point that you need to be in the right place at the right time, to strike and not be hit back. This also, or more importantly, applies to gun disarms. Being in front of and inline with the gun, is not the best place to struggle over the other guys arm.

And the point here is mabye you can break the rules and get in front of the gun and get away with it.

But you would have to do it to know.

And that is depth.

And it changes the discussion from this dogmatic. This is what is done. To this is what I do.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Yes. The difference is there is no difference. That is a marketing ploy.

If you choose to duel. Which I do these days. You may still wind up in the pocket trying to work from a bad position. And you need the ability to deal with that.

If you are an instantaneous street fighter and the other guy does this secret street fighting trick called taking a backwards step. Then you need to have the tools to deal with that.

Now I duel because I have developed those skills of timing and entries and footwork. And so can employ them instead of being able to eat punches.

Which if we are talking efficiency is better in the long run.

(And this isn't an either or debate. Having an iron chin and cardio for days. Doesn't mean it still isn't better to move away from punches.)

I don't disagree with the specific points you make here--but if either party has choosen to stay after the first swing, despite opportunity to leave, that is essentially dueling territory, and if the initiator of the attack doesn't leave, that is veering towards weapons territory.

Much of RBSD is focused on being placed in compromising and vulnerable positions, and then reacting explosively to do damage and create distance.

Pre-emptions require timing, but that's technically a different conversation.

 

[wab25]

There's a number of things I could say, point by point, but what it would ultimately come back to is---you do realize that this is not the full footage?

Are you suggesting that in the full footage, he suddenly addresses these issues of being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

You....do know the difference between dueling and instantaneous street-fighting?

I get it... you want to build in instinctual habits, that your body instantly deploys in the face of a sudden, surprise and brutal attack. Drop Bear pointed out that the timing and positioning could be added into the same sequences and same techniques, that would improve the results greatly. In the sudden surprise attack, the hope is that you respond the way that you train.... so it would seem to be a good idea to train with the right timing and positioning.

I think this is what is wrong with TMA in general. They do not spend enough time on the timing and positioning when they do their arts. Then when they get pressure tested, the techniques fail. My opinion is that it was not the technique that failed... but the person not understanding the timing, positioning and other nuance that go into making the technique work. Now, you can throw out the TMA and go for MMA... or you can put the time into understanding how these things apply to your TMA.

I would take the same route with this type of training. Team up with some MMA guys, and try it out. Find the nuances that need to be added to make these techniques work. Find some guys that know how to shoot and that want to shoot you... want to show you that your disarm does not work. Use airsoft or simunition and find the nuance that makes it work.

People who have done this work, to find the nuances that make these things work... have those nuances as part of their technique. Even if they are not emphasizing it with words... it is still part of how they move.... otherwise it would not work.

 

[drop bear]

I don't disagree with the specific points you make here--but if either party has choosen to stay after the first swing, despite opportunity to leave, that is essentially dueling territory, and if the initiator of the attack doesn't leave, that is veering towards weapons territory.

Much of RBSD is focused on being placed in compromising and vulnerable positions, and then reacting explosively to do damage and create distance.

Pre-emptions require timing, but that's technically a different conversation.

Aussie MMA Fighter Praised By UFC Stars For Defending Himself During Street Fight

Aussie MMA Fighter Praised For Defending Himself During Street Fight

www.sportbible.com

There is a video in that somewhere.

The script you are suggesting lacks depth.

The issue is that this idea of drilling from a vulnerable position isn't designed to make you a better fighter. It is designed to make you fell better. (In that specific circumstance. Do a shark tank you are not going to feel better)

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Are you suggesting that in the full footage, he suddenly addresses these issues of being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I don't know. All I know, is that it was addressed during my experience covering this stuff.

I think this is what is wrong with TMA in general. They do not spend enough time on the timing and positioning when they do their arts. Then when they get pressure tested, the techniques fail. My opinion is that it was not the technique that failed... but the person not understanding the timing, positioning and other nuance that go into making the technique work. Now, you can throw out the TMA and go for MMA... or you can put the time into understanding how these things apply to your TMA.

I would take the same route with this type of training. Team up with some MMA guys, and try it out. Find the nuances that need to be added to make these techniques work. Find some guys that know how to shoot and that want to shoot you... want to show you that your disarm does not work. Use airsoft or simunition and find the nuance that makes it work.

This is presumptuous about what I've trained and haven't trained. I would respond point by point, but I am simply not interested at this point.

I appreciate your note, about stepping back into the gun, and having tested that with simmunition.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Aussie MMA Fighter Praised By UFC Stars For Defending Himself During Street Fight

Aussie MMA Fighter Praised For Defending Himself During Street Fight

www.sportbible.com

There is a video in that somewhere.

The script you are suggesting lacks depth.

The issue is that this idea of drilling from a vulnerable position isn't designed to make you a better fighter. It is designed to make you fell better. (In that specific circumstance. Do a shark tank you are not going to feel better)

We have talked about this, ad effing nasuem. We had a bonding moment, but I'm not interested in saying what I have already said, in various ways.

 

[drop bear]

We have talked about this, ad effing nasuem. We had a bonding moment, but I'm not interested in saying what I have already said, in various ways.

Well you should. Because the idea that street fights occur in this one dimensional way is incorrect. Hence the example of a street fight that doesn't occur to the script you suggested.

It is the romance of a street fight that is being sold. You have been attacked by a bad man but you will now use killjitsu to overcome and defeat him.

It is literally a male fantasy.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Because the idea that street fights occur in this one dimensional way is incorrect.

I can't tell if you actually think I think that, after everything I've posted, or you're just trolling me. In either case--I'm not wasting anymore time on this conversation.

 

[drop bear]

I can't tell if you actually think I think that, after everything I've posted, or you're just trolling me. In either case--I'm not wasting anymore time on this conversation.

It is going to sound like trolling because you have been taught a bunch of wrong stuff that you believe. And it goes outside your skill set

Which is why you are unable to continue the conversation.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

It is going to sound like trolling because you have been taught a bunch of wrong stuff that you believe. And it goes outside your skill set

Which is why you are unable to continue the conversation.

You were a troll then, and you're a troll now, even if you do say useful things. Good day, drop bear.

 

[drop bear]

You know what. I will try anyway.

People who are trying to sell seminars will say a street fight is a particular thing to make what they are selling more applicable.

So if you are doing BJJ then street fights are a ground affair.

If you have no ground game then street fights are always multiple attackers leaping out of the shadows to kick you.

And so on.

And the way it works is to cover your mistakes. So say you can't fight. Then you are probably going to be discouraged from attending fighting seminars. Because you will probably just get beaten up by people who can fight. And that isn't much fun.

But if you create this environment where you would have won regardless as to your actual ability. Then you will feel like you gained something. And walk away satisfied.

So a street fight works in this magical world where all the bad guys are really bad. But they are also prone to making supervillain mistakes that allow the hero to overcome.

In this meat grinder style street fight you suggest is the focal point. The bad guy Has no ability to take strikes and collapses. Allowing the ambush style self defence to work.

Then you don't need to mess around with footwork or distance management or timing. Because these are not really real fights. They are duels or monkey dances or some lesser thing that you don’t really need to spend a lot of time on.

But people get seriously hurt from duels and monkey dances. The link above started because Viktor Lyall stopped those guys from dropping the boot in to some random.

And if you engage in money dances or dueling. And you are good. You get hit less. It isn't romantic but it is effective.