Lazy WC stance?

[Nyrotic]

I've noticed that, in my training, my sifu often tells me that there should be a one-fist distance between my knees during the basic goat-clamping stance (I think that's what it's called). However, during my surfings of the web, particularly youtube, I've noticed that alot of other WC fighters' stances are much wider than what I was taught, mostly during Sil Nim Tau and whatnot. When I asked about it, my sifu said it was "Pure laziness", and that I made a very good observation.

Has anyone else noticed that?

 

[Flying Crane]

If you have bad knees, this stance can aggravate the injury. If you don't have bad knees, this stance can develop the injury.

I work the stance the best I can when I am training. I don't have bad knees, but I don't always get it all the way down, with the knees as close as is "ideal". But I think often times, "ideal" is not so perfect, and perhaps not even attainable. People do the best they can, and even when things aren't perfect based on some measurement, they can still be damn effective and it doesn't matter.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Some Wing Chun lines use a Fist and a Thumb, instead of just a fist. Like Crane said, a deep Goat Stance can make a knee injury worse, which is probably why some lines use a fist and a thumb.

 

[CheukMo]

I have only seen the fist distance or less when one is trying to sink or root as far as they can and develope muscles in those areas. I've never seen anyone regularly train with that close, or deep, stance.

 

[KamonGuy2]

When you first train, the stance should be as low as you can get it. What you have to appreciate is that big guys (like me) have big thighs which means its hard to get the knees together!!

Also, as you progress, your stance becomes a little more relaxed. In forms it should technically be the same throughout, but when you play chi sao, fighting techniques etc, it becomes a little less based. You have to think of it this way - when you approach an opponent (in a bar, club, etc)you don't arrow walk up to him. You walk up to him and wait for thy fight. When you start to strike you then develop your base.

I think your sifu is wrong and dismissive to call the stances lazy when he hasn't even seen them. If you look at some old Yip Man footage or even Ip Chun footage you will see that he doesn't always keep those knobbly knees together!

 

[brocklee]

When you first train, the stance should be as low as you can get it. What you have to appreciate is that big guys (like me) have big thighs which means its hard to get the knees together!!

Also, as you progress, your stance becomes a little more relaxed. In forms it should technically be the same throughout, but when you play chi sao, fighting techniques etc, it becomes a little less based. You have to think of it this way - when you approach an opponent (in a bar, club, etc)you don't arrow walk up to him. You walk up to him and wait for thy fight. When you start to strike you then develop your base.

I think your sifu is wrong and dismissive to call the stances lazy when he hasn't even seen them. If you look at some old Yip Man footage or even Ip Chun footage you will see that he doesn't always keep those knobbly knees together!

The description most of you are giving is for the WT stanc,e right? I know that my sifu drills that the everything is relaxed and in its natural state. If you develop joint problems it's because you're doing something wrong and you're body isn't liking it. I trained WT, and am still actually in the process of breaking the contract with them, and their stance was very awkward and uncomfortable. They said it was to build up a spring like effect and is where the power came from. I had trained traditional WC years prior to my WT training and felt like this was incorrect. My new sifu agrees with me on that point and states that the leg portion of the stance is to maintain structure and make it so you can move without bobbing your head and shoulders around.

I believe the stance should be called "lazy" because in all actuality we don't use muscles like other MA's do.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Hahaha! Good point Brocklee! I agree with that - in wing chun you can build up a sweat but in most other arts you come out completely knackered

I understand that WT use a '100% on the backleg' approach?
I've always hated that idea. 100% on the backleg should only really be used during kicks

Any stance where your joints suffer is bad

 

[Nyrotic]

Well I don't plan on fighting with a fist distance goat stance, but in terms of training forms and such (Like Sil Nim Tau), would you say that the 1-fist distance is good? Or for the sake of my knees should I go up to a fist-and-thumb?

 

[CheukMo]

Well I don't plan on fighting with a fist distance goat stance, but in terms of training forms and such (Like Sil Nim Tau), would you say that the 1-fist distance is good? Or for the sake of my knees should I go up to a fist-and-thumb?

Personally, I'd do SLT with a fist and thumb and only use the one fist distance for concentrating on rooting. YMMV.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Well I don't plan on fighting with a fist distance goat stance, but in terms of training forms and such (Like Sil Nim Tau), would you say that the 1-fist distance is good? Or for the sake of my knees should I go up to a fist-and-thumb?

Your Sifu is Sifu for a reason. If you question how he teaches something as important as the stance, maybe you shouldn't train with him. If your knees hurt, it's probably a function of an incorrectly performed stance. Talk to your Sifu, bring this up and get his imput.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Your Sifu is Sifu for a reason. If you question how he teaches something as important as the stance, maybe you shouldn't train with him. If your knees hurt, it's probably a function of an incorrectly performed stance. Talk to your Sifu, bring this up and get his imput.

Exactly. But I think that a Sifu who criticizes other arts without even seeing why they are doing stances that way etc, is naive.

The basic stance does ache the legs, but it should be muscles rather than the joints that are affected

You also have to build up how close the knees are as well. Like a bodybuilder starting off with lighter weights and then building up to harder weights. You start off with a stance that you can handle and then start bringing knees in etc

Stance can come in handy, but I know wing chun guys who relied upon it too much and were destroyed in a fight.

Low base is important, but it shouldn't really matter how close the knees are in todays world.

In traditional eras when sparring was done in a very fixed way, stance was essential.

In a pubfight, you aren't going to worry too much about how close your knees are in a stance.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Exactly. But I think that a Sifu who criticizes other arts without even seeing why they are doing stances that way etc, is naive.

The basic stance does ache the legs, but it should be muscles rather than the joints that are affected

You also have to build up how close the knees are as well. Like a bodybuilder starting off with lighter weights and then building up to harder weights. You start off with a stance that you can handle and then start bringing knees in etc

Stance can come in handy, but I know wing chun guys who relied upon it too much and were destroyed in a fight.

Low base is important, but it shouldn't really matter how close the knees are in todays world.

In traditional eras when sparring was done in a very fixed way, stance was essential.

In a pubfight, you aren't going to worry too much about how close your knees are in a stance.

I don't get the feeling he was criticizeing the other styles. I have run across numerous instructors from various arts who will do somthing like this with lower ranks. The function is to get the student to do it the way the school does it now, and help the figure it out when they attainted a certian level understnading. I could of course be wrong, what do I know?

As I have said before, I don't do Wing Chun in an officail sense, however my Sensei is cross training in Moy Yat Wing Chun and gives us a pseudo-Wing Chun class during the advanced classes. When we started doing this we were told that if we could no longer hold the stance properly, then shift to a more natural position. So that we could build up to going the full time with out having to worry too much about injurying ourselves. I imagine this is also a practice at actual Wing Chun schools.

If your in the Basic Wing Chun stance in a fight, you deserve to be beat up. The stances taught in Chum Kyu are fighting stances. And they work really well. Trust me, I use it kumite all the time. Like I said, if you are in a fight, the stances tuaght in Chum Kyu (and in Bil Jee from my understanding) are fighting stances. The basic stance used in Sui Nim Tao is not a fighting stance it's about strengthing the legs and learning to sink your weight.

 

[Nyrotic]

Lol at the bit about deserving to be beat up.

But oddly, my knees don't hurt when I do the stance, but my leg muscles get really sore however. I guess it depends on HOW you do the stance on whether or not it hurts your knees? My sifu's 40-something, doing WC for around 20 years (I think), and does the stance with a 1-fist distance in SNT.

 

[CheukMo]

Lol at the bit about deserving to be beat up.

But oddly, my knees don't hurt when I do the stance, but my leg muscles get really sore however. I guess it depends on HOW you do the stance on whether or not it hurts your knees? My sifu's 40-something, doing WC for around 20 years (I think), and does the stance with a 1-fist distance in SNT.

I would try to gradually move to that distance between my knees.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I don't get the feeling he was criticizeing the other styles. I have run across numerous instructors from various arts who will do somthing like this with lower ranks. The function is to get the student to do it the way the school does it now, and help the figure it out when they attainted a certian level understnading. I could of course be wrong, what do I know?.

Don't put yourself down - I am interested in your opinion. I just think that an instructor making an opinion on things he hasn't seen is lacking. If a student asks me why we do the stance so low, I would answer that it is for training legs, developing kicking power and a stromng base

As I have said before, I don't do Wing Chun in an officail sense, however my Sensei is cross training in Moy Yat Wing Chun and gives us a pseudo-Wing Chun class during the advanced classes. .

Is Moy Yat Benny Meng's style? I keep hearing dodgy things about him. What do you do Chong? I'd be interested to hear how much success you have had with your wing chun mixed with another style

If your in the Basic Wing Chun stance in a fight, you deserve to be beat up. The stances taught in Chum Kyu are fighting stances. And they work really well. Trust me, I use it kumite all the time. Like I said, if you are in a fight, the stances tuaght in Chum Kyu (and in Bil Jee from my understanding) are fighting stances. The basic stance used in Sui Nim Tao is not a fighting stance it's about strengthing the legs and learning to sink your weight.

Exactly, stancework is really for creating a base and strengthening legs. It isn't very wise to use it in real situations unless you have the upperhand.

I try to make sure that I am not so rigid that I cannot keep up with a lighter opponent and not so light that I can be taken to the floor.

It is like Master Chan always tells me - if you are too rigid in your stance you are like a tree in a windy day. But when that hurricane comes......

 

[CuongNhuka]

Lol at the bit about deserving to be beat up.

But oddly, my knees don't hurt when I do the stance, but my leg muscles get really sore however. I guess it depends on HOW you do the stance on whether or not it hurts your knees? My sifu's 40-something, doing WC for around 20 years (I think), and does the stance with a 1-fist distance in SNT.

Like I said the primary purpose of the stance is to strenghten the legs. When you have been doing Wing Chun for about a year you will notice that if you put your hands on your thighs and flex, you can feel the muscles contract. That is a testiment to how powerful the muscles of your legs have become.
The closer your legs, the more this happens. The lines that do a fist and thumb don't do a fist because if you close your knees in any farther, you will mess them up pretty good.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Don't put yourself down - I am interested in your opinion. I just think that an instructor making an opinion on things he hasn't seen is lacking. If a student asks me why we do the stance so low, I would answer that it is for training legs, developing kicking power and a stromng base

Is Moy Yat Benny Meng's style? I keep hearing dodgy things about him. What do you do Chong? I'd be interested to hear how much success you have had with your wing chun mixed with another style


Exactly, stancework is really for creating a base and strengthening legs. It isn't very wise to use it in real situations unless you have the upperhand.

I try to make sure that I am not so rigid that I cannot keep up with a lighter opponent and not so light that I can be taken to the floor.

It is like Master Chan always tells me - if you are too rigid in your stance you are like a tree in a windy day. But when that hurricane comes......

Part one. True, but I have seen many schools do something like this for the first few months to a year. It's about making newbys just shut up and train for now. Then later, it's explianed to you why.

I'm not sure who Benny Ming is though. And it's Cuong. The full style name is Cuong Nhu. Meaning "hard soft" in Vietnamese, kinda like Goju Ryu. And I haven't really mixed styles, in the normal sense. Cuong Nhu does include Wing Chun in it. I don't know which line though, but it is a desencdent of Yip Man. I know becuase of the forms and the way we do them. There is almost no differnce.

I have heard a similar expresion. But it is actualy a parable about a reed and an oak tree. And was English... mmm... moral lessons cross cultural borders I geuss.

 

[brocklee]

And I haven't really mixed styles, in the normal sense. Cuong Nhu does include Wing Chun in it. I don't know which line though, but it is a desencdent of Yip Man. I know becuase of the forms and the way we do them. There is almost no differnce.

It's to my understanding that all wing chun is a lineage from Ip Man, right? I understand about the WT and VT and others that are pronounced somewhat the same but spelled differently.

I asked my Sifu about the distance between the knees. He states that it is western ideology is what makes people ask questions like, "Whats the distance between the knees?". He says that it doesn't matter as long as a the concept is behind it. The toe should align with the knee and the weight placed on the heals. Feet follow the lines of you forward going triangle. Bend the knees till you feel the thigh start to get tense and then back up just a little bit. If you're getting sore joints or you're muscles start to get tired, you need to adjust so that they don't. He states that everybody's body is different and the stance may not look the same from one practitioner to another, yet they both have the same concept and strong structure. The fist distance between the knees is said to build power or strengthen the legs while practicing form. Ip Man WC doesn't teach power from the knees, the power comes from the structure and the rotation of the joints.

 

[KamonGuy2]

It's to my understanding that all wing chun is a lineage from Ip Man, right? I understand about the WT and VT and others that are pronounced somewhat the same but spelled differently..

Not really. There are different brands/versions of wing chun that didn't go through Yip Man, Benny Meng being one of them (or so he claims).

Yip Man is a huge figure in wing chun as he united many of the clashing wing chun schools in the 50s. Most of all wing chun has some link to him, and his sons (Ip Chun and Ip Chin) still teach over in Hong Kong

I asked my Sifu about the distance between the knees. He states that it is western ideology is what makes people ask questions like, "Whats the distance between the knees?". He says that it doesn't matter as long as a the concept is behind it. The toe should align with the knee and the weight placed on the heals. Feet follow the lines of you forward going triangle. Bend the knees till you feel the thigh start to get tense and then back up just a little bit. If you're getting sore joints or you're muscles start to get tired, you need to adjust so that they don't. He states that everybody's body is different and the stance may not look the same from one practitioner to another, yet they both have the same concept and strong structure. The fist distance between the knees is said to build power or strengthen the legs while practicing form. Ip Man WC doesn't teach power from the knees, the power comes from the structure and the rotation of the joints.

Your sifu knows what he is doing. That is an exceptional explanation.

 

[CuongNhuka]

It's to my understanding that all wing chun is a lineage from Ip Man, right? I understand about the WT and VT and others that are pronounced somewhat the same but spelled differently.

I asked my Sifu about the distance between the knees. He states that it is western ideology is what makes people ask questions like, "Whats the distance between the knees?". He says that it doesn't matter as long as a the concept is behind it. The toe should align with the knee and the weight placed on the heals. Feet follow the lines of you forward going triangle. Bend the knees till you feel the thigh start to get tense and then back up just a little bit. If you're getting sore joints or you're muscles start to get tired, you need to adjust so that they don't. He states that everybody's body is different and the stance may not look the same from one practitioner to another, yet they both have the same concept and strong structure. The fist distance between the knees is said to build power or strengthen the legs while practicing form. Ip Man WC doesn't teach power from the knees, the power comes from the structure and the rotation of the joints.

Only about 90% of Wing Chun schools/lines come out of Yip Man. He learned it from someone else, who leanred it from some one else, and so on back wards. Each branch does things differnitly.

Also, you are correct. Most lines (from my understanding) do ruffly the same thing. The perscribed distance is mearly a tool for newbys. After a while people figure out were there knees should be for them.