Language Pt 1 : Was - Anyone heard of Gensei-Ryu?

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Pyros

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I have no idea. I have bumped into texts saying "Gensei/Taido was founded by Shukumine" and texts saying "Gensei/Taido was founded by Iwamine". Go figure, maybe one of them has been a typo or incorrect misprint. Beats me.

Notice, that the frontpage of the Gensei site has an entire online book to read freely (The Kick Of Three Dimensions), I didn't find it at first as I didn't notice the scrollslide on the right side. The book has all the history and some tech samples of Genseiryu.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by arnisador
??? Do you mean to say that those represent the same Japanese word?


One is the Okinawan way to say his name and one is the Japanese.

Example:
The name Kanegusuku (Golden Castle) in Okinawan is Kinjo in Japanese.
 
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RyuShiKan

Guest
Originally posted by Pyros
I have no idea. I have bumped into texts saying "Gensei/Taido was founded by Shukumine" and texts saying "Gensei/Taido was founded by Iwamine". Go figure, maybe one of them has been a typo or incorrect misprint. Beats me.

Notice, that the frontpage of the Gensei site has an entire online book to read freely (The Kick Of Three Dimensions), I didn't find it at first as I didn't notice the scrollslide on the right side. The book has all the history and some tech samples of Genseiryu.


In the back of Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan Karate teachers you can find a short bit on Shukumine and his teacher Kishimoto (?).
 
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arnisador

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Originally posted by RyuShiKan
One is the Okinawan way to say his name and one is the Japanese.

Thanks for the info.; that's quite a difference. Is the difference in pronunciation as great as it would appear to be from how they're written in English?
 
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Pyros

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Originally posted by arnisador
Thanks for the info.; that's quite a difference. Is the difference in pronunciation as great as it would appear to be from how they're written in English?

If you look closely, only the first syllables are different (Shuku -> Iwa) and the second syllable stays the same (mine). Remember that original Okinawan language is quite different from Japanese, so it is no wonder some words are weird. For example, the word bunkai is AFAIK Japanese and the equivalent in Okinawan (whatever the language was called) is tichiki. Karate was usually called uchinadi in Okinawa and so on.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Pyros
If you look closely, only the first syllables are different (Shuku -> Iwa) and the second syllable stays the same (mine). Remember that original Okinawan language is quite different from Japanese, so it is no wonder some words are weird. For example, the word bunkai is AFAIK Japanese and the equivalent in Okinawan (whatever the language was called) is tichiki. Karate was usually called uchinadi in Okinawa and so on.


Okinawan and Japanese are different languages just as Spanish and Russian are different languages.
 
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Pyros

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But unlike Spanish and Russian, Okinawan and Japanese are neighbours and both have lots of similarities between their vocabulary, for example hand is te in Japanese and ti in Okinawan, the original "Chinese Hand" is tote in Japanese and toudi in Okinawan. Both drew influence from Chinese and other neighbouring cultures.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Pyros
But unlike Spanish and Russian, Okinawan and Japanese are neighbours and both have lots of similarities between their vocabulary. Both drew influence from Chinese and other neighbouring cultures.


Do you speak Chinese, Japanese, or Okinawan?

Okinawan language, culture, and social structure are more closely related to Chinese than Japanese. In fact I have met many Okinawans that have stated point blankly they dislike Japanese.
 
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Pyros

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Please, read my post again. I said they both drew from Chinese. :shrug:
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Pyros
Please, read my post again. I said they both drew from Chinese. :shrug:

I read you post and understood it.

I don't think you understood mine.


By the way, do you speak any of the languages I asked about?
 
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Pyros

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Not in a useful way. I just know a lot of words and frases. So, could you elaborate on your point?
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Pyros
Not in a useful way. I just know a lot of words and frases. So, could you elaborate on your point?


Not without writing pages upon pages of information.
There are several books out on the topic of Okinawan culture and how it is not that similar to Japanese culture.
My Japanese wife was amazed at what a foreign country Okinawa issomething she had never really considered until she went there and Okinawans kept saying things like oh your Japanese to her.
 
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Pyros

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Again I repeat: I never said Okinawan and Japanese cultures were similar! Never said that! The only thing I did say was that some of their vocabulary is similar because they both drew words and influence from Chinese.
 
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RyuShiKan

Guest
Originally posted by Pyros
Again I repeat: I never said Okinawan and Japanese cultures were similar! Never said that! The only thing I did say was that some of their vocabulary is similar because they both drew words and influence from Chinese.


I asked if you spoke any of the languages and you pretty much replied you didn't. So I am wondering where you draw your ideas from.
I do speak the languages mentioned and can tell you that there are almost no Okinawan words that are similar to Japanese.
Okinawan is more similar to Chinese.

Example:

The same sentence written in all three languages.

Okinawan:

Wan Ya ichun

Chinese:

Wo Yau Chu

Japanese:

Watashi wa ikimasu.
 
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Pyros

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Well, you're right. I have no first hand experience. My knowledge comes from other people's books, mostly Mark Bishop's, Pat McCarthy's, etc. I have just noticed the similarities of several words, like toudi, tuite, tode just to give a single example. But I'm sure you can find more examples of words that are not similar.

Hey in my native language (finnish) there are thousands of words derived from swedish words, yet if I would go through the tens or hundreds of thousands of words in the finnish language, I bet I could come up with streams of examples of words with no swedish influence... I would guess same for Okinawan/Japanese languages. I have read that several words are similar and deriwed from same Chinese root words. But of course, if we look into a hundred thousand Okinawan words and a hundred thousand Japanese words, we find that the similar words are in minority. That doesn't mean there doesn't exist any such words.

But I'll let this rest as I really have no personal experience and the books and studies I could refer to are not at my disposal at the moment.

I leave this at rest with the following quote from "Okinawa: The History of an Island People" written by G. Herr and M. Sakihara:

from the top of page 22: "Many elements in contemporary Okinawan cultural life and legend suggest that here was a well-used pathway into the sea islands. As the migration stream from the continent and the Korean Peninsula spent itself in the islands, it distributed related racial and cultural elements in western Japan, Kyushu, and the Ryukyus."
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Pyros
Well, you're right. I have no first hand experience. My knowledge comes from other people's books, mostly Mark Bishop's, Pat McCarthy's, etc. I have just noticed the similarities of several words, like toudi, tuite, tode just to give a single example. But I'm sure you can find more examples of words that are not similar.

I have read their books and know McCarthy very well.

todi/toudi/tode/toti are all Okinawan words not Japanese.

Tuite is a word that was coined by my teacher several decades ago and is a combination of Okinawan and Japanese.



Originally posted by Pyros
from the top of page 22: "Many elements in contemporary Okinawan cultural life and legend suggest that here was a well-used pathway into the sea islands. As the migration stream from the continent and the Korean Peninsula spent itself in the islands, it distributed related racial and cultural elements in western Japan, Kyushu, and the Ryukyus."


Thats all fine and good economically but genetically the Okinawans are more closely related to Pacific Islanders and S.E. Asians, and culturally they are closer to Chinese.
 
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Pyros

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Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Thats all fine and good economically but genetically the Okinawans are more closely related to Pacific Islanders and S.E. Asians, and culturally they are closer to Chinese.

Yes. Okinawans are culturally closer to Chinese than to the Japanese. The Japanese are culturally closer to Chinese than to the Okinawans. Again, just as I said. Seems we're running around in circles. :p
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Pyros
Yes. Okinawans are culturally closer to Chinese than to the Japanese. The Japanese are culturally closer to Chinese than to the Okinawans. Again, just as I said. Seems we're running around in circles. :p


The Japanese are closer to the Koreans and Mongolians than anybody.
 
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