Lack Of Power In Techniques

KempoGuy06

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HongKong,
I don't know you but it is very obvious that you have had limited contact with the overall Kenpo community. Yes there are many "sports" type of Kenpo schools out there and there are also many Kenpo schools that "talk the talk" but fail to "walk the walk". However there is a very large group of kenpoists that can back up what they say. Out on the west coast there are the Kaju systems and the Ralph Castro systems along with many many others. On the east coast there are the SGM Cerios schools and the SGM Pesare's schools along with those who came from their lineage. The best way to personally prove out your opinon is to walk into one of the mentioned schools and call them a bunch of candy a _ _ _ _ and see what happens.
One should not blanket an entire style because of a few contacts that one has made or what one reads in a forum.
p.s. Kaju is not Kenpo but many of todays Kenpo systems are from their lineage.
Nothing personal here just my opinon about a slap in the face we kenpoists received.

well said.

No amount of Kenpo training will prepare you for an attack (sucker punch) that you don't see coming. I also stand by my statement that many Kenpo people can't fight. They can spout off terminology, talk about principles, and work techniques on a compliant partner when they know what the attack is. Take away the comfort of knowing how and where you are going to be attacked and the Kenpo goes right out the window.

Like lawdog said that is a slap in the face just a little. You cant judge us all by the actions of one.

at the same time i have meant people from other disciplines who fall into the same category. I usually just pity them and hope they never find out the hard way how little they know.
 

hongkongfooey

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HongKong,
I don't know you but it is very obvious that you have had limited contact with the overall Kenpo community. Yes there are many "sports" type of Kenpo schools out there and there are also many Kenpo schools that "talk the talk" but fail to "walk the walk". However there is a very large group of kenpoists that can back up what they say. Out on the west coast there are the Kaju systems and the Ralph Castro systems along with many many others. On the east coast there are the SGM Cerios schools and the SGM Pesare's schools along with those who came from their lineage. The best way to personally prove out your opinon is to walk into one of the mentioned schools and call them a bunch of candy a _ _ _ _ and see what happens.
One should not blanket an entire style because of a few contacts that one has made or what one reads in a forum.
p.s. Kaju is not Kenpo but many of todays Kenpo systems are from their lineage.
Nothing personal here just my opinon about a slap in the face we kenpoists received.


Law Dog,

You are correct. My experiences have been with mostly with the Parker's Kenpo community and a little of Tracy's, and I should have mentioned that. But my intention is not to paint the whole community with a wide brush that is why I said many, not most, or all Kenpo schools. To be honest, some in the Kenpo community need to be slapped in the face for the poor product they put out and the bad students they produce. One would think with all of the 10th degree grand masters in Kenpoland there would be a little quality control, but I guess not. Look at the bad kenpo videos on you tube and read the comments of Kenpo people reviewing them. For the most part the reviews are glowing and the performance is not any better in person.

There are some excellent Kenpo people that can back up their claims, I am in agreement with that.
 

Cyriacus

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I see what you are trying to point out...I think.

Speed and power are intertwined. Throw in mass and its basic physics. I like what you stated though i think it needs to be tweaked. It really depends on the person. Someone big will have a large amount of strength and could probably knock someone out due to his strength and sheer size but that wont help him in a fight against someone who is faster and more agile. On the flip though...someone small and agile might not have the sufficient strength to take down a much larger opponent. Of course this is an age old argument where technique comes into play as well.

Basically what i want to say is that power and speed are equally important. Both can diffuse a situation and can save your life (as they have for me personally). I think as teachers we should concentrate on TEACHING the techniques and then SHOW them how power and speed are intermixed.

B
Youve interprited me Correctly, Sir!
Also, as regard to Size - I think its more Striking Area than Technique. Find the biggest guy there is, and if you can get his Throat, Knee, Shin, or Liver, itll still Hurt as much as anyone else.
 

KempoGuy06

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Youve interprited me Correctly, Sir!
Also, as regard to Size - I think its more Striking Area than Technique. Find the biggest guy there is, and if you can get his Throat, Knee, Shin, or Liver, itll still Hurt as much as anyone else.

Again we agree for the most part. Striking area is technique in regards to the trained vs untrained. Even someone with a limited training background will know to cover vital areas from immediate attack. That being said: where their training ends our training begins and openings tend to...well...open :)

Ive been in a couple altercations and a couple with guys bigger than me (im 6'3" 250lbs as i stated before, so that is a large opponent for me to say he is bigger than me). Even with out training vital targets are still hard to reach since you have to account for their own height vs yours and their reach vs yours. It's not impossible but it is challenging. I have taken it upon myself to learn more about my disadvantages as a bigger person than learning how to use my size as an advantage. It has given me an edge when facing sparring partners with more experience when they set out to exploit my disadvantages for themselves. They are always shocked to find out that i know how to counter that.

Again this is where technique comes into play and where i stated the difference between teaching and showing. Vital areas are important to know as they can save your life when facing multiple opponents but it must always be remembered that there is a counter to ever technique and a counter to every counters. Thus is the circle that is martial arts.

B

As and after thought I'm hoping the OP of this thread, the wise MJS, chimes in again as I am sure he will. Id like to hear his thoughts and also see if he can possibly create another thread out some of this off-topic garble that we have provided. It would be interesting to see the thoughts of some of the MT members on the differences between teaching and showing.

Ill stop rambling on now...:D
 
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KENPOJOE

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While I agree that the art of Kenpo provides us with a vast array of tools, sometimes I can't help but think that there are too many tools in the box. Students tend to focus on the 'fancy' things, such as the long drawn out techniques, such as Dance of Death. Long tech, lots of moves, it looks cool, because you're beating the hell out of the person...lol. Yet in reality, is that practical?

To each his own I suppose, but for me, I'm a believer in the KISS principle. We're all getting to the same end point, only difference is that some get there a bit quicker. :)
H folks!
Regarding the "too many tools in the box" Plumbers don't carry just one wrench,Carpenters only one kind of nails and a hammer,"The proper tool for the proper job" the old adage goes...
But if we limit ourselves and strip away the "unessentials" then we limit our ability to use the "Z" of the alphabet when the time an situation warrants it.
I remember a west coast kenpoist telling me about his friend who was a nuclear physicist and literally a rocket scientist. He tried to get his friend in kenpo when he expressed an interest in martial arts. But after bringing him to a few kenpo classes, he budy wasn't interested, when pressed for an answer on why he wasn't interested. the friend told the kenpo guy"Look, I want to do something where I don't have to THINK about anything! I think all day long and the last thing I want is to study something where I have THINK about a whole new set of things!"...So, the Kenpo guy brought his friend to a well known shotokan dojo to watch a class and take and introductory session. The friend loved it! He stated "This is great! It's simple mindless training not rocket science!" Literally. Remember: the more derogatory version of KISS is: Keep It Simple Stupid!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
 

punisher73

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H folks!
Regarding the "too many tools in the box" Plumbers don't carry just one wrench,Carpenters only one kind of nails and a hammer,"The proper tool for the proper job" the old adage goes...
But if we limit ourselves and strip away the "unessentials" then we limit our ability to use the "Z" of the alphabet when the time an situation warrants it.
I remember a west coast kenpoist telling me about his friend who was a nuclear physicist and literally a rocket scientist. He tried to get his friend in kenpo when he expressed an interest in martial arts. But after bringing him to a few kenpo classes, he budy wasn't interested, when pressed for an answer on why he wasn't interested. the friend told the kenpo guy"Look, I want to do something where I don't have to THINK about anything! I think all day long and the last thing I want is to study something where I have THINK about a whole new set of things!"...So, the Kenpo guy brought his friend to a well known shotokan dojo to watch a class and take and introductory session. The friend loved it! He stated "This is great! It's simple mindless training not rocket science!" Literally. Remember: the more derogatory version of KISS is: Keep It Simple Stupid!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Going with the tool analogy. A good carpenter will have "mastered" the tools he uses the most. THEN when he has a job that requires a specialty tool you knows that it is time to use it and is able to use it because of the time spent on the main version of it.

A large toolbox can be both a hinderance and a blessing depending on the student. You can master your basics and keep those sharp and then start adding other tools to use, OR a student can just start sampling all of them and never really mastering any of them.

It isn't the system that is "too big" or has "too many techniques", it is the student that doesn't spend the time to dig in and master those and then slowly add more. Mastery of the basics is enough to handle most situations that you will find yourself in. So, if all you want in an MA is "most situations" then you won't need all those tools, BUT if you want to be able to handle the situations you may find yourself in that aren't as common then you will need those other tools.
 

KempoGuy06

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Going with the tool analogy. A good carpenter will have "mastered" the tools he uses the most. THEN when he has a job that requires a specialty tool you knows that it is time to use it and is able to use it because of the time spent on the main version of it.

A large toolbox can be both a hinderance and a blessing depending on the student. You can master your basics and keep those sharp and then start adding other tools to use, OR a student can just start sampling all of them and never really mastering any of them.

It isn't the system that is "too big" or has "too many techniques", it is the student that doesn't spend the time to dig in and master those and then slowly add more. Mastery of the basics is enough to handle most situations that you will find yourself in. So, if all you want in an MA is "most situations" then you won't need all those tools, BUT if you want to be able to handle the situations you may find yourself in that aren't as common then you will need those other tools.

I like this.

Its something I use and strive to teach. I see a lot of the students coming up in the ranks and get awed at the wow factor of some of the stuff they get to learn. I try to point out that while that stuff is cool the basics are called that for a very good reason. they are the begging of what we learn and thus are tried and tested.

nice post punisher

B
 

LawDog

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I use the K.I.S.S. theory. My system covers standup, throws and ground. We use our techniques against empty hands, weapons and multi attacks. It is easy to apply the K.I.S.S. theory after a student is taught how to modify their techniques to fit most situations. Fewer techniques can then cover many situations. We need only a small tool box.
No one way is completly right and no one system is completley wrong, it is their percentage of right and wrong that counts.
Lawdog.
 
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MJS

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H folks!
Regarding the "too many tools in the box" Plumbers don't carry just one wrench,Carpenters only one kind of nails and a hammer,"The proper tool for the proper job" the old adage goes...
But if we limit ourselves and strip away the "unessentials" then we limit our ability to use the "Z" of the alphabet when the time an situation warrants it.
I remember a west coast kenpoist telling me about his friend who was a nuclear physicist and literally a rocket scientist. He tried to get his friend in kenpo when he expressed an interest in martial arts. But after bringing him to a few kenpo classes, he budy wasn't interested, when pressed for an answer on why he wasn't interested. the friend told the kenpo guy"Look, I want to do something where I don't have to THINK about anything! I think all day long and the last thing I want is to study something where I have THINK about a whole new set of things!"...So, the Kenpo guy brought his friend to a well known shotokan dojo to watch a class and take and introductory session. The friend loved it! He stated "This is great! It's simple mindless training not rocket science!" Literally. Remember: the more derogatory version of KISS is: Keep It Simple Stupid!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

That is true Joe....a plumber has multiple tools, same for a carpenter, etc. But, the fact remains, when the poop is hitting the fan, all the fancy stuff goes out the window. Dont believe me? Let me use another example. Arnis. We have numerous blocks, disarms, locks, etc. Funny though, how you never see any of that fancy stuff when it comes time to spar. I've yet to see the nice controlled, textbook disarms that you usually see, during training sessions.

My point was simply...yeah, in Kenpo we have alot of stuff at our disposal. Yet the majority of the time, its the simple stuff that we tend to fall back on. Using myself as another example...when I've done spontaneous reaction drills with my teacher, ie: him attacking hard and fast, me having no idea what he's going to do, its rare that I pull off a full textbook Kenpo tech, and personally, thats not my goal. My goal is to defend myself in the most effective and simplist way possible. No time for fancy stuff.
 

KempoGuy06

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That is true Joe....a plumber has multiple tools, same for a carpenter, etc. But, the fact remains, when the poop is hitting the fan, all the fancy stuff goes out the window. Dont believe me? Let me use another example. Arnis. We have numerous blocks, disarms, locks, etc. Funny though, how you never see any of that fancy stuff when it comes time to spar. I've yet to see the nice controlled, textbook disarms that you usually see, during training sessions.

My point was simply...yeah, in Kenpo we have alot of stuff at our disposal. Yet the majority of the time, its the simple stuff that we tend to fall back on. Using myself as another example...when I've done spontaneous reaction drills with my teacher, ie: him attacking hard and fast, me having no idea what he's going to do, its rare that I pull off a full textbook Kenpo tech, and personally, thats not my goal. My goal is to defend myself in the most effective and simplist way possible. No time for fancy stuff.

would you say that the "fancy" stuff is just a training tool to help us tie our stuff together and to help us use combinations more effectively?

B
 
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MJS

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would you say that the "fancy" stuff is just a training tool to help us tie our stuff together and to help us use combinations more effectively?

B

Sure. I'll use a lock flow for example. In Arnis, we have a long lock flow series, in which we transition from one lock to the next. Sure, this simply helps the student learn a bunch of locks, how they flow, etc, but the odds of flowing from one to the next to the next to the next, if you were lucky to apply one in the first place, is slim, IMHO. Out of all those locks, I have a few 'bread and butter' moves that I train alot, feel comfortable with, and feel confident enough to apply. In a nutshell, they're simple but effective. :) So just like the techs, yeah, I do Dance of Death and all the other long, drawn out ones, but I also have my KISS techs, that I prefer.
 

KempoGuy06

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Sure. I'll use a lock flow for example. In Arnis, we have a long lock flow series, in which we transition from one lock to the next. Sure, this simply helps the student learn a bunch of locks, how they flow, etc, but the odds of flowing from one to the next to the next to the next, if you were lucky to apply one in the first place, is slim, IMHO. Out of all those locks, I have a few 'bread and butter' moves that I train alot, feel comfortable with, and feel confident enough to apply. In a nutshell, they're simple but effective. :) So just like the techs, yeah, I do Dance of Death and all the other long, drawn out ones, but I also have my KISS techs, that I prefer.

Dance of Death...now that sounds cool!!

I honestly never saw the point of the fancy stuff and as I have moved up in the ranks I have noticed that I question the validity of several things i have learned. The seem perfectly fine in class when running drills but some of them in my opinion seem like they may end up getting you hurt or killed because of the complexity of the techniques.

B
 
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MJS

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Dance of Death...now that sounds cool!!

I honestly never saw the point of the fancy stuff and as I have moved up in the ranks I have noticed that I question the validity of several things i have learned. The seem perfectly fine in class when running drills but some of them in my opinion seem like they may end up getting you hurt or killed because of the complexity of the techniques.

B

You should look up the description of the techique...its rather interesting. :D Like I said, every art has its fancy stuff. Do I do the fancy stuff? Sure. Those fancy techs are still taught as part of the art, but I always try to make clear that chances are, when your *** is on the line, the fancy stuff is best replaced with something more effective and practical. Something long, drawn out and fancy will probably work best when you are in a situation that'll allow you to do those things, ie: when you have a compliant attacker. But the drunk in a bar, who is pissed off at you because you were looking at his girl, probably isn't going to allow you to pull off something fancy.
 

KenpoDave

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While I agree that the art of Kenpo provides us with a vast array of tools, sometimes I can't help but think that there are too many tools in the box. Students tend to focus on the 'fancy' things, such as the long drawn out techniques, such as Dance of Death. Long tech, lots of moves, it looks cool, because you're beating the hell out of the person...lol. Yet in reality, is that practical?

To each his own I suppose, but for me, I'm a believer in the KISS principle. We're all getting to the same end point, only difference is that some get there a bit quicker. :)

There are a lot of tools in that box. But it is a "system box," and each practitioner carries only the tools he knows how to use.
 
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