Kyokushin Karate

[Nicholas82555]

I've noticed over the years whenever I decided to purchase the "Fighting Arts" magazine. Various styles are mentioned such as Goju, Shotokan, Naha-Te etc.

Why isn't Kyokushin not mentioned? Is this strictly an Okinawan thing or is there an underlining purpose...hmmm

Mas Oyama at one point in his lifetime did study Goju.

 

[dancingalone]

I've noticed over the years whenever I decided to purchase the "Fighting Arts" magazine. Various styles are mentioned such as Goju, Shotokan, Naha-Te etc.

Why isn't Kyokushin not mentioned? Is this strictly an Okinawan thing or is there an underlining purpose...hmmm

Mas Oyama at one point in his lifetime did study Goju.

Because it's considered more of a sporting style. Magazines like Classical Fighting Arts tend to stick to 'traditional' systems. Goju and Uechi-ryu gets a lot of coverage as does Shotokan and Shorin-ryu.

Part of it undoubtedly is because the magazine is a scholarly one - often the articles involve much research in old masters. Kyokushin is a young style and just hasn't built up that type of academia interest.

 

[Nicholas82555]

You must enlighten me on the "sporting" aspect. Kyokushin Karate competition allows techniques to be tried and tested far more than the traditional Okinawan style based systems.

Remember how Oyama put his new style to the old traditional test back in the 40s, no comparision when it came to his all out style which the other systems have never seem to that point. The only person I can think of whoever came close and went on to push the point of a Oyama style attitude was Joe Lewis (Shorin-ryu). It's a good thing Norris didn't have to compete under Oyama like conditions because he would have never beaten Lewis on the few occassions he did.

As for the history and philosophical side of the house I understand perfectly.
All in all, point well taken.

 

[dancingalone]

Oh, I am not knocking kyokushin. I think the hard sparring is a good thing. But it IS sport. No punches to the head in tournament sparring, many pro kickboxers have come from kyokushin or one of its derivatives... Those are traits that would make me regard kyokushin as a karate style that has a deep sporting connection.

It's not meant as an insult. I believe kyokushin can be an effective style to train in for self-defense.

 

[Nicholas82555]

I didn't take it as an insult Whenever "I" ask a question it's meant with utmost sincerity in order to confirm my thoughts or to learn. I'm able learning from others and getting a good understanding of how and why people do or think what they're thinking. It's all about understanding with me))

What's ur thoughts on MMA. Personally, it lacks character building and with all the accolades of a competitor (black belt in this and black belt in that). Once the first punch or kick is thrown you hardly see any of the disciplines that they've supposedly been well trained in.
I'm not saying MMA isn't competitive but alot of competitor "to me" are a real discredit to the style and teacher they represent. I guess I'm old schoo. If you want to be good, it takes time and perserverance.

And there is a difference between an art and a sport.

 

[dancingalone]

I think MMA lacks the philosophical instruction many karate styles have, but I do not believe this is necessarily a bad thing. Many MMA fighters have traditional backgrounds where they had exposure to the spiritual studies after all. And I believe there's a code of sportsmanship alive and well in MMA. I certainly have encountered it while 'rolling' with a few BJJ, judo, and sambo people.

And MMA takes a long time to be good at too. On its face, it may appear to be simple, but I can assure you, the volume of techniques learned can be as varied as any in karate or aikido. MMA coaches do a good job of teaching counters - many times in traditional grapplying arts the counters to a specific lock aren't taught until one is very advanced indeed. In MMA, you tend to learn both the technique and its counter at nearly the same time.

Art and sport... sure there's a difference. But I do think a system can display elements of both. In my uninformed opinion (since I don't study kyokushin), I would probably place it more on the sport side if I had to group it in some type of lexicon.

 

[Malleus]

What's ur thoughts on MMA. Personally, it lacks character building and with all the accolades of a competitor (black belt in this and black belt in that). Once the first punch or kick is thrown you hardly see any of the disciplines that they've supposedly been well trained in.
I'm not saying MMA isn't competitive but alot of competitor "to me" are a real discredit to the style and teacher they represent. I guess I'm old schoo. If you want to be good, it takes time and perserverance.

And there is a difference between an art and a sport.

I don't think I agree.

Firstly, you have to define 'character building.' Is it being instilled with traditional martial art tenents like 'respect sensei' and 'stick to your style'? Or is it in a broader sense. There's no doubt boxing builds character, but it's probably not the philosophical stuff you're hinting at.

Even with the traditional aspects, you can't say that MMA doesn't always teach them. MMA, but definition, is made of a mixture of martial arts: it could encompass such things as Karate, TSD or Aikido: all of which have very strong ideas on what should be taught in the ways of ideals.

I believe that the lack of rank or belts is a good thing. That way the only thing that then identifies a person as being good is their skill: plain and simple. No undue deference to the guy who bought his black belt, and can perform a nice snap kick but is hopeless in a sparring match. Everyone's equal, and hopefully it's free of the self-aggrandizement that plagues the more disreputable dojos. If you want respect you have to excel, rather than tap away for a few years until you get your black belt.

As to your comment that the styles aren't immediately apparent in MMA: there's good reason for that. Pure styles are not as effective in full contact scenarios as MMA. Some exceptional individuals can retain some hallmarks of their styles in MMA (Machida's shotokan or Silva's TKD), but they're still a far cry from what a 'purist' would look like. Like it or loathe it, their styles had to be heavily adapted to remain effective, when you factor in clinchwork and groundwork.

 

[blindsage]

You must enlighten me on the "sporting" aspect. Kyokushin Karate competition allows techniques to be tried and tested far more than the traditional Okinawan style based systems.

Remember how Oyama put his new style to the old traditional test back in the 40s, no comparision when it came to his all out style which the other systems have never seem to that point. The only person I can think of whoever came close and went on to push the point of a Oyama style attitude was Joe Lewis (Shorin-ryu). It's a good thing Norris didn't have to compete under Oyama like conditions because he would have never beaten Lewis on the few occassions he did.

As for the history and philosophical side of the house I understand perfectly.
All in all, point well taken.

I come from a Kyokushin background and love it, but let me ask you a couple questions. If you kick the knee in a Kyokushin tournament, what will happen? If you punch to the face, what will happen? If you kick in the nuts, or hit the kidney, or do a hip throw, or puch to the throat, what will happen?

 

[Nicholas82555]

Let me clarify character building and projection and it's only a personal perspective of mine. If you make a mistake or want to impress someone why is it always a 4 letter word or some sort of profanity. Now, with that said if it's a slip of the tongue I can handle that but people with a limited sense of vocabulary no matter how skilled they are doesn't impress me at all. We must strive for the total package but I'm only one person and I am definitely no angel but I always want to put my best face forward esp. when ur dealing with kids. And we wonder where did they get this foul mouth from????
Respect for your style is not as important as respecting you're fellow man and respecting yourself.

Although I'm a WCnners, I do admire the Kyokushin fighters because of the total regimen of training the body.

 

[repz]

Many karate styles can be titled as "sport". Shotokan is one type of school who embraces their form of kumite, as well as many japanese goju schools, and from what I have seen, many old style traditional schools as well. Kyokushin just has a different version to express their liveness and other attributes that are built against a resisting opponent. Many Kyokushin schools still do kata, and bunkai, and last I checked (last night actually) we are still doing knifehand attack drills aimed to the neck area, low sidekicks to the knee, hooks (forgot the name of the strike, but its not a hook) to the back of the neck, backfists to the bridge of the nose. Its all in the syllabus.

Just because the actual fight of kyokushin sparring is what stands out, doesnt mean its the end all be all.

And frankly, after having to fight 10 people being recycled back to back with no rest period with or without protective gear taught me a whole lot about self defense. Because from my experience, a low kick is still a low kick, a punch is still a punch, a dodge is still a dodge, and we throw them at full force as legally allowed with as much minimal equipment possible, and at black belt with no equipment. Its pressure testing, body conditioning, and full force application, mind you against other fighters who at the same or even above level as your own.

And for the comment of kicking to the groin and neck, what style does that? Someone can easily argue that hitting thin air, or stopping inches to these areas from prearranged fighting, isnt exactly performing kicks to the groin and neck.

 

[Nicholas82555]

Kicking to the groin just threw me back about 40 years when I was stationed in Korea. I was studying TKD at the time and use to visit various school on my own throughout Seoul. Well, lo and behold I stopped by a Baqua school, watched, talked to the teacher and after critiquing the pluses and minuses of TKD had me to square off against one of his students. Having good reflexes brought the bout to a draw but it left my finger tips fully swollen blocking all the low kicks thrown at "my groin".

None of their kicks were above the belt and "walking the circle" can wreck havoc if you haven't experienced face it before. But it was all a good learning experience.

 

[JohnASE]

I've noticed over the years whenever I decided to purchase the "Fighting Arts" magazine. Various styles are mentioned such as Goju, Shotokan, Naha-Te etc.

Why isn't Kyokushin not mentioned? Is this strictly an Okinawan thing or is there an underlining purpose...hmmm

Mas Oyama at one point in his lifetime did study Goju.

If you're talking about Classical Fighting Arts magazine, there are a couple of possible factors.

First, I'd guess some of it is just a question of writing what you know. Maybe the publishers just don't have as many connections with authors who are experts on Kyokushin Karate. I'd bet there aren't nearly as many experts on the history of Kyokushin are there are on the history of Shotokan!

Also, I could be mistaken, but I vaguely remember reading about Kyokushin and Mas Oyama in the Dragon Times, the former title of Classical Fighting Arts Magazine, back when it was more like a newspaper. If they've already written things on Kyokushin, they might not want to repeat info, and if there are fewer experts, maybe there's less studying and less to write about.

Finally, Classical Fighting Arts magazine is put out by the same people who do Tsunami Productions videos. A lot of the topics covered in the magazine (at least as far as I remember) are related to topics covered in the videos. They complement each other. Some info gathered in producing their excellent videos can be expanded upon to make great articles.

This last point relates to the first one. They make videos about what they and their associates know, and they publish articles about what they and their associates know.

 

[Victor Smith]

The focus of Classical Fighting Arts is very much on the older arts. Kyokushin straddles the time between the older arts and the newer ones.

Certianly having access to the instructors performing in those videos gives access to information from their backgrounds and that makes for article tie ins.

Classical Fighting Arts contributors are not compensated beyond having their articles published and they do constitute the authorities on the arts they write about for the most part. The magazine is focused on it's nitch in a time most martial arts publications are declining and fewer magazines are printed each year.

Tsunami's videos are for the most part a dying form, especailly with youtube often showing many times many videos from those same isntructors. Certainly each of those youtube's are not necessarily the same quality, but they're free and often the content shines forth without the quality production. Admitedly there are thousands of non-quality martial videos for each one of value, but it does show the world in a necessary way too.

Kyokushin is a hard training and fighting art. Now the Isshinryu I studied was also bare knuckle, hard body contact in those days, I'm not terribly sure there was much difference at that level. I have good friends with Kyokushin dan backgrounds who left to study Japanese arts such as Koi Kan finding a more interesting content.

That's what makes the martial world, there is no superior system, just individuals making choices that work for them. Often today the training is less harder becuase of other more important life choices people must make, more important than driving hard. That doesn't make their changed training less valuable, just different.

The likely direction in martial publications is extinction, especially as the martial arts become more varied and everyone is only pushing their own nitch. The volume isn't there to justify the publications.

It's all about money in any case, even in the dojo you have to make a living.

 

[Martin h]

Kyokushin and its derivatives has always been somewhat separated from other, more "traditional" (as in founded about 20-25 years earlier), karate. When kyokushin was formed it was called Kenka karate (brawling karate) by famous karate practitioners of other styles. This is largely due to politics and the fact that kyokushin stayed out of the japanese karate federation -that most other styles joined on the mainland.

So kyokushin was reviled as overly brutal, barbaric and crude. An attitude that still influence many "trad" karate practitioners. It was not long since I was told directly by a high ranking shotokan practitioner that what I do is not real karate since it is full contact and use lowkicks. Im not kidding!

That kyokushin competition do not allow punches to the head, does not make it more of a sport style than Shotokan, wado, and goju (-kai) banning lowkicks, knees and elbows in competitions make those more of sport styles. Punching to the face is still a integral part of training. As is formal kihon, and kata.