Kung Fu Vs.

[sifu Adams]

Black Tiger Fist,

You haven't offended me I just would like to know how it differant for your style. I hear all the clams and no one back them up. don't worry about upseting me. I have trained in the system for years and most don't understand it. Most of the background if faded (I believe it's because Sin and Brother Hiang didn't ask questions of where thingscame from) I have two of the black tigers forms. the wounded has the movements of a tiger or cat of some type. Idon't believe that they were made up by the brothers however if it is not black tiger them what is it? I can show you many fighting applications out of both forms and you the body movements look like cat movements. so what other forms of tiger could it be? I am looking to gain knowlage not argue oppion of the style. I would be interested in hearing all the differnts in the black tiger. I have seen in other parts of the system (more with sin than Hiang) where it seems the kata was incomplete or they may have forgot a part. Master Hiang was the note keeper I have seen all the notes on the forms he has. Sin just fought a lot.

 

[Dronak]

I haven't read through everything here, just did a quick skim. And this has probably been said already, so I'm not sure it's of much use at this point, but . . . I would think that if you find that you can't easily deal with certain types of attacks/defenses from an opponent, you may need to train in some other style to gain the knowledge, techniques, and practice you need to be able to deal with them. You noted that, "If I stayed outside, it was all his fight." Now, I don't really know you or anything, but to me that suggests that long range fighting gives you some difficulty. I understand that different styles tend to focus on different aspects of fighting. But ideally they should give you the knowledge you need to deal with all aspects, even if at a very basic level. Since this may not happen, learning multiple styles will help you fill in the gaps. For myself, the tai chi I've learned seems to like closer range fighting while the kung fu I've learned is supposed to focus a bit more on longer range fighting (it's "long fist" after all). However, it's all generally striking -- I don't really see how any of this would deal with grappling, throwing, or ground fighting. I'm also a beginner and will admit that it may be in there somewhere and I just don't see it. But if I were more into learning MA for real fighting, I'd probably be looking to learn some other style that would give me more knowledge and experience in those areas.

 

[RHD]

For myself, the tai chi I've learned seems to like closer range fighting while the kung fu I've learned is supposed to focus a bit more on longer range fighting (it's "long fist" after all). However, it's all generally striking -- I don't really see how any of this would deal with grappling, throwing, or ground fighting. I'm also a beginner and will admit that it may be in there somewhere and I just don't see it. But if I were more into learning MA for real fighting, I'd probably be looking to learn some other style that would give me more knowledge and experience in those areas.

That's interesting Dronak.
Give this a little bit of thought...

The long fist that you have learned can actually be used quite effectively at close range, the name doesn't necessarily mean long range fist. Try not to think of applications as the fist at the end of the arm, but as the whole body. Your opponent can get caught up in those moves like a big meat grinder. This is where you'll find a lot of your locks, throws, and takedowns. The sensitivity and sticking that you're learning in tai chi can really help out in this area, but I disagree with the idea of cross training to fill in gaps. I say, look within before combining parts of other styles.


Mike

 

[Dronak]

Well, you have to remember that I'm a beginner and probably will consider myself as such for a long time to come. There are probably aspects of the style that I don't grasp because I haven't practiced and studied it enough. But some of my tai chi books have talked about how felling techniques or chin na techniques are included in the form, so I've seen some of it there. The same may hold for the kung fu I learned. I still get the impression that ground fighting is its own area though.

FWIW, an intro sheet we got says (modifying the grammar a bit), "Long-Fist style emphasizes kicks over hand techniques. Such a long-range system stresses full extension of the limbs so that kicks and punches are extended as far as possible without compromising balance or power." Certainly it's not all like that, we do have elbow strikes in forms, for example, but I thought that the focus was long range fighting. I could be wrong though. I didn't learn or do quite as much as some of the others in the class (by choice, I didn't feel ready to move that fast), so I could have missed some things they learned and for all I know it could have included things like this.

I will agree that it's useful to look within your own style to see what else is there beneath the surface, but that probably requires a fair amount of practice and experience before you can find it. If you're just looking for basic proficiency so as not to be caught off-guard, cross training may be better, faster, easier, choose an ajective. I think your goals will help you decide how you go about training.

 

[7starmantis]

I will agree that it's useful to look within your own style to see what else is there beneath the surface, but that probably requires a fair amount of practice and experience before you can find it. If you're just looking for basic proficiency so as not to be caught off-guard, cross training may be better, faster, easier, choose an ajective. I think your goals will help you decide how you go about training.

I think it doesn't require practice and understanding on your part as much as having a good teacher who understands it and can then explain and teach you. That’s the key in my opinion. Basic proficiency so as not to be caught off guard can be from your taiji or your kung fu; I don’t think you need another style for that. If you switch to another style wont you run into the same issue? Cross training can be a good thing, but not before you have a good grasp on your current system, in my opinion. As far as the adjectives you listed, I don’t think better really goes with faster necessarily. Maybe faster and easier, but not necessarily better.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I think it doesn't require practice and understanding on your part as much as having a good teacher who understands it and can then explain and teach you. That’s the key in my opinion. Basic proficiency so as not to be caught off guard can be from your taiji or your kung fu; I don’t think you need another style for that. If you switch to another style wont you run into the same issue? Cross training can be a good thing, but not before you have a good grasp on your current system, in my opinion. As far as the adjectives you listed, I don’t think better really goes with faster necessarily. Maybe faster and easier, but not necessarily better.

JMHO,
7sm

True!

Black Tiger Fist,

You haven't offended me I just would like to know how it differant for your
style. I hear all the clams and no one back them up. don't worry about
upseting me. I have trained in the system for years and most don't understand
it. Most of the background if faded (I believe it's because Sin and Brother
Hiang didn't ask questions of where thingscame from) I have two of the black
tigers forms. the wounded has the movements of a tiger or cat of some type.
Idon't believe that they were made up by the brothers however if it is not black
tiger them what is it? I can show you many fighting applications out of both
forms and you the body movements look like cat movements. so what other forms
of tiger could it be? I am looking to gain knowlage not argue oppion of the
style. I would be interested in hearing all the differnts in the black tiger.
I have seen in other parts of the system (more with sin than Hiang) where it
seems the kata was incomplete or they may have forgot a part. Master Hiang was
the note keeper I have seen all the notes on the forms he has. Sin just fought
a lot.

Well, for one you're right!

The Black Tiger forms i've seen of Shaolin-Do look very incomplete. They do use the fu jow hand technique ,but fu jow does not a tiger style make. It's funny you mention cat style because it resembles a cat more than a tiger or lion movement ,but that could just be the way the person playing the form did it?!?!?!

I noticed many things in watching the forms that just was not in line with any southern based tiger styles i know. The stances,movements,techniques i'm not saying it can't be a tiger based styles form ,it's just not a Black Tiger form.

If it is??

It was part of a form and it was played very badly.

I'll have to see the forms played again ,it was so long ago i can't remember to much about them.


jeff

 

[te75uo]

I am in the Shaolin Do school in Charleston West Virginia. I am only a blue belt, and have alot to learn.
We have learned one Tiger kata; Fei Foo Tzu Tung, Flying tiger came out of the cave. It does not look anything like the videos posted earlier, both the Shaolin Do one, and the other. It feels complete to me, and my teacher explains what all of the movements are for.
Also I noticed that with some of the videos on the Shoalin Do site that the instructor does not put his heart into the movements. That bothers me expecially since several of the videos are done by one of the teaching black belts. I also noticed he does several things wrong. I feel that when doing forms you should put your all into them, because they are an exercise, and how can you exercise by not getting in low stances, snapping punches/kicks correctly, and not moving the hips correctly.

 

[sifu Adams]

It has been said by Grand Master Ie Ching Ming the grandfather of the brothers that GM Ie travaled all over northern china. could it be a nothern form of a black tiger?

 

[InvisibleFist]

Its likely that there are more than one styles/forms called "black tiger."


Hung gar has several movements with the name "black tiger".

 

[InvisibleFist]

Sorry...I'm not a Northern style practitioner but this sounds very TKD like and not very CMA like. A good practitioner of any Chinese style begs for an opponent to attack them like that becasue they're giving up their root for you.


Mike

Ever see Northern Shaolin? They loooove to do all that TKD jumping spinning tornado stuff!

 

[InvisibleFist]

I'll apologize (half-heartedly) ahead of time if I come across too "authoritarian" with this post...

#1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision. Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.

You've obviously never sparred a Northern Shaolin or TKD practioner. I agree that high kicks are of limited utility on the street, but we are talking about sparring here. There's a reason that the kickers own the tournaments.

#4 - In a style with a self-proclaimed forms library of over 500 forms, it is unlikely that those forms are "Shaolin" in origin, necessarily (and please note the spelling of Shaolin - it takes away from the legitimacy of your comments when you can't even spell the name of your own style).

This is just goofy. They're not Shaolin because they have too many forms?

Let me ask you this, is Hung Gar Shaolin? Few people would deny it. Yet its core forms were coreographed by Wong Fei Hung AFTER the burning of the temple.

Is Wing Chun Shaolin? Of course it is, but it didn't take the form it currently has until Ng Mui shaped it.

Shaolin was a university of martial arts. Yes, not every style begain their, but retired warriors came their to teach. So other styles became part of the Shaolin body of knowlege.

All Chinese martial arts are either Shaolin (buddhist) or WuDang (Taoist). Saying "Shaolin" is like saying "Kung Fu"...its a very generic term for a wide range of styles.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

It has been said by Grand Master Ie Ching Ming the grandfather of the brothers that GM Ie travaled all over northern china. could it be a nothern form of a black tiger?

Yes,

Shantung Black Tiger is a Northern Black Tiger Style.

I think it maybe a totally different systems Black Tiger not CMA ,but maybe from other areas? There are several Black Tiger systems from outside of CMA. I've seen Shantung Black Tiger as well as Fu Jow Pai Black Tiger ,and Nam Sil Lum Hak Fu Pai. The forms i've seen don't resemble any of those CMA Black Tiger Styles.

jeff

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Its likely that there are more than one styles/forms called "black tiger."


Hung gar has several movements with the name "black tiger".

Correct!!

But Hung Gar also has a tie into Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn (Shaolin Black Tiger) Su Hak Fu was one of the Ten Tigers Of Kwantung (Canton) with Wong Kie Yin (Wong Fei Hung's father).

Wong Fei Hung also learned Hak Fu Muhn.

That is well known history!

jeff

 

[Infrazael]

On cross training, I believe that certain arts provide you with bonus material to increase the raw, overall power of your primary art.

For example, boxing is an excellent way to increase your strength. Even if you do not use tons of hooks, punching all day is going to do some good.

Peace.

 

[7starmantis]

On cross training, I believe that certain arts provide you with bonus material to increase the raw, overall power of your primary art.

For example, boxing is an excellent way to increase your strength. Even if you do not use tons of hooks, punching all day is going to do some good.

Peace.

True, but I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't need to cross train, you should be punching all day with your primary art, you dont need to go train in boxing for that if your allready doing it.

7sm

 

[Infrazael]

But then again, cross training is not the same thing as mixing everything together, as seen in JKD or MMA?

Also, what about serious GnP fighters or submission fighters??? How would you defend yourself if a BJJ practitioner actually GOT you onto the ground?

I plan on learning BJJ not to mix it together with Kung Fu, but if I ever get attacked by a skilled grappler I'll be able to handle myself on the ground just as well as standing up.

 

[7starmantis]

But then again, cross training is not the same thing as mixing everything together, as seen in JKD or MMA?

Also, what about serious GnP fighters or submission fighters??? How would you defend yourself if a BJJ practitioner actually GOT you onto the ground?

I plan on learning BJJ not to mix it together with Kung Fu, but if I ever get attacked by a skilled grappler I'll be able to handle myself on the ground just as well as standing up.

Its not? Whats the differance in cross training and "mixing it all together"? If you train in it aren't you going to use it when fighting?

As far as actually getting taken to the ground by a ground fighter, I do that all the time. Your Kung Fu principles will work the same standing up or on the ground. If your training is complete enough to include ground fighting why would you need to cross train? You dont need BJJ to be able to handle yourself on the ground, but you do need a teacher that is experienced and can teach you ground fighting, and you need to fight on the ground alot.

7sm

 

[rox]

I agree with 7*, you don't need to add movements from other arts, you just need to find what in your own art can do the work.

I think that cross training is important to find the flaws in your personal style, so that you can find in your overall style the tools that you're missing. If you're style is too specific, you will need to complete with outside stuff, but I guess that is not often the case on kung fu.

 

[Hammer Head]

Cross training.... Yes, it can be done. But it is best to learn one style really well and specialize in it. Then the process of learning from other systems and styles becomes more meaningful. If your main style is "close range", then try a longer range style. Grappling and qinna should also be a part of the mix.

Aside from that it's important to make the distiction of "sparring" with "real fighting". What may work in a sparring session will not necessarilly work in a "real time" situation.

Train, as if your life depended on it!

 

[Isrephael]

I definitely lucked out when I found my current Kwoon. Most everyone there has a background in other arts. The Si Bok is primarily a CMA practitioner, but has also trained in Judo, Aikido, TKD, western boxing, BJJ, and... and.. and... the man is a walking dictionary. He can explain how most any technique works against [Martial Art X] and how [Martial Art X] would respond to any given technique.
Our school is basically a "when you want to learn how to REALLY fight; when you wish to learn how to apply what you know to the street: study here" school. And, so, when it is time to spar, we have students with past training in TKD, Karate, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Western Boxing, Police Submission training, Military combat experience, and I think there's even a bit of the Egg Foo Yung and Tom Yum Goong.
Each sparring partner brings a whole different hand of cards to the table, and it's very satisfying to see which card trumps what.