Kung Fu Vs.

[7starmantis]

I know this topic has been discussed before on a more specific basis, but I'm curious to see what others who practice kung fu (CMA) and those who practice other styles think about this.

Lately I've been doing alot of "sparring" with a new student of ours who has been training in judo and alot of san shou before joining our school. As most of you know I practice mantis kung fu which relies heavily on its grabs and open hand techniques. Of course our goals are different as his is very much sport and point orriented having done alot of san shou, while mine is strictly realistic "street-orriented" for lack of a better definition. However, the differences in fighting are vast. He focuses on small quick hits to wear down a certain body part (leg, ribs, etc) during the duration of the match. He has great speed and very nice kicks and loves to keep outside at a nice distance. Me on the other hand, I dont use much high kicks, and I really aim to get in as close as possible. With the big gloves on I'm really restricted as to my techniques. If I stayed outside, it was all his fight.

What do you guys think of the differences in styles? What do you think is the most effective way to close the gap? Do you think you should close the gap and get in close at all? How do you deal with fast repeating kicks? How do your kung fu principles relate to this type of fighting?

After we sparred yesterday we took off the gloves and did some chi sou type fighting. The differences were amazing. Once I closed the gap and stuck close it was over, the ability to grab and yield work well in that situation. How would a kickboxer type fighter deal with that close, grabbing, type of fighting? What would be his agenda against someone moving in close and applying chin na and sweeps and pressure points?

Any ideas?

 

[DeLamar.J]

I think the only answer is to cross train. The more versitile you are the better, because your opponent is always going to get you where they want you eventually if they are decent, and vice versa. I have recently been sparring with a very good Wing Chun fighter, as long as I can keep him back and jab out while throwing kicks I have the advantage, but sooner or later the gap will be closed and then its my turn to take some punishment. So needless to say I am cross training in Wing Chun now, because we realized we can learn alot from each other.
I recomend cross training with the guy who is your opposite, you both will benifit greatly. I always thought I was a good boxer in close but I learned real fast that boxing is not much of a match for a good Wing Chun fighter up close, they can trap you up and use alot techniques that a boxer is not used to. I had no idea what I was getting myself into fighting up close, I really had no idea what was happening to me, I just knew I was getting spanked. Then we started to cross train and he shows me all of the dirty little Wing Chun tricks. Those Wing Chun guys are dirty, dirty I tell ya!! :angry:
When we are at medium to long range I have the advantage, but you cant keep the gap forever, and he cant stay on top of me forever, so we cross train and share techniques.

 

[RHD]

I really think what you guys are doing is great. It's good experience for yourself and your training partner, and it's good for your peer to witness. I take a different approach however, when it comes to learning to deal with the specialties. My preference is to stick with one style, continue to engage in the crosss-style exchanges, and learn how my system, and my abilities can overcome the strengths of my training partner's style and their abilities. This is not to say that I frown on cross training...There is definately a value in it. It's just that after @ 15 years in one system, I'm still learning about it and it's endless possibilities.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, I think cross training can be a great tool and a good way to get well versed in many styles. My only problem with cross training is that it tends to make it easy to overlook learning a specific technique really well. See, if something isn't working right you can just cross train and then you have something different to use instead of the thing that wasn't working. I'm of the opinion you should stay right there with the thing that isn't working and understand it enough to apply it properly so that it does work. Other than that, I have no problem with cross training except that I think people go about it way to soon. Also, to define cross training I wouldn't consider fighting or "sparring" with someone cross training.

If this guy I'm fighting is beating me on the outside game, I need to learn how to stick better, when he gets a good kick in and I've really applied my principles and yielded to the kick and stuck to him, then when he pulls his kick back in I move in with it. Then its my game again. I just dont see how me going and training in kickboxing or something is going to help me learn how to deal with that outside game using the principles of kung fu. I would be ignoring the problem area by learning another way or an easier way to deal with it.

7sm

 

[tshadowchaser]

The gloves restrict much of what you might do without them, or at least make it harder to reconise the technique. Getting inside, where you might like to be, is a practice of quick movements ( skips, hops, slides ) done when your opponet is attacking or setting from his movement.
Use a couple of strikes then get out or pursue him and never let him back into his comfort zone.
Practiceing with someone who spars/fights in a 180 degree area from what you like to do is one of the best ways to improve your attack zone.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Yeah, I think cross training can be a great tool and a good way to get well versed in many styles. My only problem with cross training is that it tends to make it easy to overlook learning a specific technique really well. See, if something isn't working right you can just cross train and then you have something different to use instead of the thing that wasn't working. I'm of the opinion you should stay right there with the thing that isn't working and understand it enough to apply it properly so that it does work. Other than that, I have no problem with cross training except that I think people go about it way to soon. Also, to define cross training I wouldn't consider fighting or "sparring" with someone cross training.

If this guy I'm fighting is beating me on the outside game, I need to learn how to stick better, when he gets a good kick in and I've really applied my principles and yielded to the kick and stuck to him, then when he pulls his kick back in I move in with it. Then its my game again. I just dont see how me going and training in kickboxing or something is going to help me learn how to deal with that outside game using the principles of kung fu. I would be ignoring the problem area by learning another way or an easier way to deal with it.

7sm

Yes, some people go about it waaay to soon, you must have a very solid base in your first style or you will undo or unlearn all of the progress that you have made in that style, becoming a jack of all trades master of none.
I have cross trained in boxing, ju jitsu, and now wing chun. The only really solid base I have is in go ju karate. However the ju jitsu, boxing, and wing chun really help me out and makes it easier to find all new possibilities. I think boxing is one of the best things to cross train in because its hard contact, and very straight forward. Boxing will teach you very quick because you will get lumps on your face for making stupid mistakes, unlike alot of martial arts.
The ju jitsu was very helpful to me also, even though I dont a a very solid base in that style. I have used it effectively many times, I basicly just wrap my body around one limb and twist it in a way that causes pain. Im not that great at it but I can twist some people up good if they make stupid mistakes while grappling.
The wing chun however seems like it has a huge learning curve. But I love it. I know this sounds wierd but I enjoy being beat down by a wing chun fighter, the whole time Im like WOW! that was a nice technique. Show me paaaalease!

 

[RHD]

Yes, some people go about it waaay to soon, you must have a very solid base in your first style or you will undo or unlearn all of the progress that you have made in that style, becoming a jack of all trades master of none.
I have cross trained in boxing, ju jitsu, and now wing chun. The only really solid base I have is in go ju karate. However the ju jitsu, boxing, and wing chun really help me out and makes it easier to find all new possibilities. I think boxing is one of the best things to cross train in because its hard contact, and very straight forward. Boxing will teach you very quick because you will get lumps on your face for making stupid mistakes, unlike alot of martial arts.
The ju jitsu was very helpful to me also, even though I dont a a very solid base in that style. I have used it effectively many times, I basicly just wrap my body around one limb and twist it in a way that causes pain. Im not that great at it but I can twist some people up good if they make stupid mistakes while grappling.
The wing chun however seems like it has a huge learning curve. But I love it. I know this sounds wierd but I enjoy being beat down by a wing chun fighter, the whole time Im like WOW! that was a nice technique. Show me paaaalease!

Nice Thread.

One thing about cross training...
You can learn things from other systems that give you insights into your own system. Things you may not necessarily be able to learn from your sifu or peers. I strongly urge everyone to exchange as much as possible with other systems after developing a strong base in your own.

Mike

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Yeah, I think cross training can be a great tool and a good way to get well versed in many styles. My only problem with cross training is that it tends to make it easy to overlook learning a specific technique really well. See, if something isn't working right you can just cross train and then you have something different to use instead of the thing that wasn't working. I'm of the opinion you should stay right there with the thing that isn't working and understand it enough to apply it properly so that it does work. Other than that, I have no problem with cross training except that I think people go about it way to soon. Also, to define cross training I wouldn't consider fighting or "sparring" with someone cross training.

7sm

Heck yes close the gap!!! That is how you've trained best to fight right! I was going to say that if his feet are an issue, take out his legs asap. But the way you go about that is going to depend on your sparring goals and ring apps and street are going play differently..as you said.. A good take down or ( what the hell is that stomp kicked called??? I'm sorry.very tired) . This guy being judoka though it's going to come down to speed. AS long as you're in close, the sanshou ( providing you can get the takedowns or stomp ( excuse sacrelige) from more mid range ) is probably not such a big issue.

What sort of kicks are we talking ( height/ type? being it'll dictate how to approach them and how to best close the gap) . Being sanshou, I'd expect he'd likely be big on low rounds and though I'm sure you have defence for that, I'd still get in close and begin the take down but I'd be more likely to go in with a lateral shin defence before I slipped in for the reap.

btw : I think you can effectively cross train via sparring with someone outside your own system providing you discuss the differences and drill your new techs. For example in Guanzhou recently I was cross training my tkd / dimmak / nth shaolin / aikido with a sth shaolin/ xingyi shifu and in the trade off noticed his side kick was different and looked stronger, yet he was open through his torso and respectively open to a host of strikes and gave me a larger margin to play with. It wasn't until we took to the bags and went for drills that I realised exactly where the difference laid and how to best use each version treating them as different kicks altogether, his over chambering on the tkd side and obviously pistoning in lieu of the tkd follow through side, though really tkd chamber with piston / tkd chamber with follow through / and his version make 3 total and 4 if you use his with a follow through ( though why in crimineys you'd want it I haven't quite worked out yet) . You're right though, by only sparring I wouldn't 've gotten that.

cheers

BL

 

[thekuntawman]

i dont think you have to cross train to improve your fighitng. what you did by sparring with the classmate is good. what i think will benefit you more is to spar with him and other people, as many people that you can, more often. this will help you get use to using what you specialize in doing (mantis style) against a real opponent who does not want to get hit.

san shou is no more realistic than mantis (or anyother traditional) kung fu style. the advantage this classmate has, is that he is use to throwing what he was training to throw against live opponents. i have met some very good seven star guys who were very good fighters, and they did not have to study somebody else's method to get good.

so it would be good to cross train, but cross train by sparring other people and styles, not to learn there way of fighitng, but to learn how to beat it.

 

[7starmantis]

Good post. I agree with you, I just tend to use the word cross-train as meaning actual learning of another style. Me fighting with someone of another style is just part of what helps increase my skill in my opinion. If you never put your skill to test against that of a different style or fighter, you are really lacking something in my opinion.

Good post

7sm

 

[Blooming Lotus]

and being some arts lack various components, like grappling, feet strikes, ground fighting, cavity srtiking and so forth, I just like to know personally, form preservation aside , that I've covered my bases.

 

[sifu Adams]

7* first I would like to learn more about the 7 star system. I do southern mantis from Gin foon Mark and northern form Haing The. I believe I have seen where you have said in other post that having to many kata's dosn't help you. well This is where I feel it has helped me. My northern style of mantis has the high kicking in it, as well as trapping and evading moves for the high kicks. the southern style I believe is more like yours. The southern dose not kick above the waist and the elbows are in ect... what I have found is to watch the shoulders and pinatrate with a short distance strike before the your opponet can get the kick started. you can also look to kick just above the hip of the kicking leg to stop the momentem of the kick. Once you get the first strike in, as master mark would say, "you end it". we like to get our opponet behind the punch, this is where we are in so tight and striking so fast that the opponet will throw the block a 1/4 of a secend after you hit him.

 

[7starmantis]

I'm not familiar with Haing The, what style of northern mantis is it? Yeah, 7* is really a northern style I believe but our training tends to lend itself closer to southern for some reason. I dont really remember saying that about forms, but what I believe about them is that they are great and 7* does have alot, but they are not what the system is all about. Its a principle system, not simply a collection of techniques or forms. I do think it helps to have alot of forms at least in getting lots of techniques, but I would rather be really great at one or two than just ok at 20 or 30.

IMHO,
7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

7* sorry maybe it was someone else that said that about the forms. Hate to open this up but. Master Hiang The' is the brother of Master Sin The' of the Shoalin do system. We don't train under Sin The' for reasons I rather not talk about. The mantis we do is liget. by all means. However I could not tell you were it comes from. The Kicks that I am talking about is head level. the thrust has a instep kick to the oppist side of the head followed by a spinning hook kick to the other. I say its liget because of the fallowing. first anchent styles mimicked the anamils to a "t" our do that. At no point do we not look like the Mantis. the moves are based on the 3 tech. which from what I read is a common number for shoalin forms. every move has a porpose. and the form teaches you not only how strike but how to set up your opponet using wieght placement, grabs, throws, and lead in tech. Which tells me that how ever made this form they were well trianed in the shaolin arts and beliefs. I would also ask this question We know that many of the arts like TKD, karate have came from shaolin if this is true why do they kick head level. Don't you think that the oraganial styles of these systems would look like us?

 

[RHD]

The Kicks that I am talking about is head level. the thrust has a instep kick to the oppist side of the head followed by a spinning hook kick to the other.

Sorry...I'm not a Northern style practitioner but this sounds very TKD like and not very CMA like. A good practitioner of any Chinese style begs for an opponent to attack them like that becasue they're giving up their root for you.

Sin The's brother... :uhyeah:...Yikes. I don't mean to be insulting, but that's like opening a can of worms inside a can of worms.


Mike

 

[sifu Adams]

Yes I know all about the Sin the. its sad because the system is powerful and I have had other master and grand master out side the system that have seen the forms (done right) and will tell you the system is a true shaolin. they are nothing like TKD. not even close. I would love to elabrate on the system but I would refuse to get into a name calling thread. I do have some insight that would stir some people but I could back mine up with facks. all aside As for the waiting for a attack. I would question that. southen mantis which has nothing to do with any form of TKD or Shaolin do will tell you the best defence is not to get hit if that means striking first then you do. this is not tournament fighting I am talking about.

 

[RHD]

Yes I know all about the Sin the. its sad because the system is powerful and I have had other master and grand master out side the system that have seen the forms (done right) and will tell you the system is a true shaolin. they are nothing like TKD. not even close. I would love to elabrate on the system but I would refuse to get into a name calling thread. I do have some insight that would stir some people but I could back mine up with facks. all aside As for the waiting for a attack. I would question that. southen mantis which has nothing to do with any form of TKD or Shaolin do will tell you the best defence is not to get hit if that means striking first then you do. this is not tournament fighting I am talking about.

Hey Sifu Adams,
As I said, I don't mean to be insulting. Master Gin Foon Mark gets all of my respect. Southern Mantis is an widely recognized no-nonesense fighting system. I get skeptical when people talk of spinning kicks to the head in CMA. I've never heard of Sin The's brother. If his mantis is legit, he's going to have a hard time shaking certian stereotypes and perceptions.

Mike

 

[sifu Adams]

RHD you are not going to insult me by talking about Sin or Hiang The. I have train in the system and its sad that the student of both sides can't work together. Gin foon mark came down to my instructors gym in eastern Ky and the first thing he did was look around the gym as all the Photo of the Shaolin master (Shoalin do) and he also said like everyone "Shaolin Karate?" my instructor walked to the center of the gym and preformed the Iron Man internal Kata. Master Mark said "that's Shaolin". That's was all he said about the so called Shaolin Do System. Master mark also talked about the anchent styles of shoalin being to open with high kicks. I wish we could find more on the history of the The' brothers system because I feal there is a lot more to the system than meet's the eye. thats why I got on MT I thought some of you may be able to help me trace the history of some ot the forms.

 

[clfsean]

Ok... I'll toss a bone in ... the Iron Man form, San He (San Njie).

It's a pretty common form in southern KF circles, especially those from around the Fujian area. It made its way to Okinawa & became Sanchin. Wuzu Quan (Ngo Cho Kuen) calls it Sam Chien. Click on the first clip... it's the Fujian White Crane version, San Jan. http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html

Check that out. There are decided similarities between that & the SD version of it. Good luck with anything else. If you want, feel free to PM me.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Sin The's brother... :uhyeah:...Yikes. I don't mean to be insulting, but that's like opening a can of worms inside a can of worms.


Mike

LOL yeah that is pretty funny.:uhyeah:


jeff