Kung Fu vs MMA

Xue Sheng

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Pretty sure that is passive aggression that is a vital component of web forums.


I have seen that term thrown around a lot her lately an frankly I do not think those that are using it, know what it actually means..so to help the Passive aggressive accusatory crew out

pas·sive-ag·gres·sive
adjective
  1. of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important material.
Spelling and word meaning are both rather important to any conversation... that is quite true, that is if one actually is trying to have a conversation

As to my previous post

Nothing passive agressive about it, that is unless one sees fact and truth as passive aggressive....
 
Last edited:

Tez3

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I don't think I've ever been passive aggressive, I like aggression without any passivity at all. :D I do think though many people don't understand irony or even sarcasm, the latter is an art form which when done well can be a masterpiece.
 

Steve

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I don't think I've ever been passive aggressive, I like aggression without any passivity at all. :D I do think though many people don't understand irony or even sarcasm, the latter is an art form which when done well can be a masterpiece.
John Oliver is single handedly teaching America all about irony. It's a beautiful thing.
 

Steve

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Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
Not to be confused with ironing, which can sometime be quite extreme:

extreme_ironing_mountains_9.jpg
 

Buka

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Oh Henry, what are they talking about now?
 

Oracle3927

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This is my definition of exaggerate: "to enlarge or increase especially beyond the normal". Source: If a punching technique in training extends beyond what would be considered a the normal application of that technique in fighting, then the technique done in training would be considered by definition, as an enlargement of what is done in fighting.

A person can enlarge movement without overextending.

One that you can't explain either. Which says something about the technique.

FULL DISCLOSURE: CLFSean is my training brother. He and I train at the Lama Pai school to which JowGaWolf referred and I was there the night that JowGaWolf came to visit... I wish that if JowGaWolf had a question about why we perform our techniques a certain way, he would have just asked me (we all know each other IRL, and I work on his side of town, so it would have been much easier to just show him in person instead of hunting down all of these video references), but as it's become a matter of public discussion, I will try my best to provide a thorough-ish answer.

Lama Pai, Hop Gar, and Bak Hok Pai are effectively different branches of the same root art and are often categorized as Southern Longhand Chinese Martial Arts (along with Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar and Jow Gar). In our particular lineage, a lot of the apparent force at a basic/beginner level is centrifugal in nature. We make sharp use of the waist/torso to motivate the limbs through broad arcs. With that in mind, we don't hit targets; we hit through targets. Not to be confused with the common notion of penetrating a few inches past the surface of a target (as anyone would learn with a basic jab), but it's more like the swing of a bat, where the striking vector is a full swinging motion that continues well through & past the point of impact.

To do this intelligently for a fight requires a bit of setup. We don't just start off with large, swinging motions against an opponent in a modern fighting posture; one has to create an opening through positioning. Nor is this the only principle upon which Lama Pai operates, but I hope this suffices for a quick & dirty explanation of this principle as it is relevant to why our Paau Choihs might seem "overextended" in the eyes of someone who doesn't understand our system.

Theory aside, now onto examples & applications:

Paau Choih as a Strike


This is a video discussion between Michael Parrella (Lama Pai; same lineage) and David Rogers (Hop Gar). While it's debatable whether this methodology truly provides "an edge" as Parrella states circa 2:22, they fairly well explain several ways for how Paau Choih can be used as a strike. If you don't have time to watch the whole video, start at 2:08 to see the movements in action.

Paau Choih as Positioning Before a Counter-Strike



Paau Choih can also be used as the longhand version of a slip, to get to the outside of your opponent's line of attack. In this video circa 2:11, Kong Fan Wei (Hop Gar) demonstrates the use a Paau Choih as "defense" against an overhand strike, but proceeds from this position into a counter attack. Since it is only a simple demonstration, he stops the motion near the point of contact without hitting his student (clearly visible at 2:46), but as can be seen in the form, the technique after the first Paau Choih is another full, longhand, "to the moon Alice!" Paau Choih.

Unfortunately, the flow of the application isn't fully demonstrated - as this video is part of a series to teach the form. To my understanding, as such techniques have been taught to me, it should move from one to the other with no pause, (again, reference David Rogers in the first video at 2:08 for the idea of flow). This either effects the noted follow-up strike or (if the opponent attempts a cross) places you back on the outside position again from the other side.


In this video, you can also see Chris Childs (his base art is Choy Li Fut, but his lineage teaches some Hop Gar) positioning to the outside before a low straight counter-strike at 0:37. In my lineage, Paau Choih is followed by a low straight punch A LOT. At 3:49, Chris's student attempts this Paau Choih during some light sparring and Chris replies with the same sequence.

Paau Choih as Limb Destruction


David Rogers and Michael Parrella talked about limb disruption as a strike to the limbs (1:35). In this video circa 5:25, Steven Ventura (my teacher's teacher) talks about attacking the elbow joint. He's using a Jyu Geng Paau Choih (which is basically the same as the shorter uppercut that was brought up by JowGaWolf), but I personally prefer this application with the longer Paau Choih at full extension.

Consider, if you will, the position that Kong Fan Wei was in when he got to the outside of the overhand strike. If he turned toward his opponent, and brought the one fist down hard over-top the opponents arm (kind of like the slight cover over-top that Ventura performs) while the other fist shot to the sky, making contact anywhere at or above the elbow, it becomes a very violent arm break (or break attempt).

Chris Childs shows the same application concept in his video at 2:20.

---------------------------

End Notes: I really have no intentions of being on this forum much. If you have any questions/comments/concerns, I can be most easily reached via Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Oracle3927
 

drop bear

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FULL DISCLOSURE: CLFSean is my training brother. He and I train at the Lama Pai school to which JowGaWolf referred and I was there the night that JowGaWolf came to visit... I wish that if JowGaWolf had a question about why we perform our techniques a certain way, he would have just asked me (we all know each other IRL, and I work on his side of town, so it would have been much easier to just show him in person instead of hunting down all of these video references), but as it's become a matter of public discussion, I will try my best to provide a thorough-ish answer.

Lama Pai, Hop Gar, and Bak Hok Pai are effectively different branches of the same root art and are often categorized as Southern Longhand Chinese Martial Arts (along with Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar and Jow Gar). In our particular lineage, a lot of the apparent force at a basic/beginner level is centrifugal in nature. We make sharp use of the waist/torso to motivate the limbs through broad arcs. With that in mind, we don't hit targets; we hit through targets. Not to be confused with the common notion of penetrating a few inches past the surface of a target (as anyone would learn with a basic jab), but it's more like the swing of a bat, where the striking vector is a full swinging motion that continues well through & past the point of impact.

To do this intelligently for a fight requires a bit of setup. We don't just start off with large, swinging motions against an opponent in a modern fighting posture; one has to create an opening through positioning. Nor is this the only principle upon which Lama Pai operates, but I hope this suffices for a quick & dirty explanation of this principle as it is relevant to why our Paau Choihs might seem "overextended" in the eyes of someone who doesn't understand our system.

Theory aside, now onto examples & applications:

Paau Choih as a Strike


This is a video discussion between Michael Parrella (Lama Pai; same lineage) and David Rogers (Hop Gar). While it's debatable whether this methodology truly provides "an edge" as Parrella states circa 2:22, they fairly well explain several ways for how Paau Choih can be used as a strike. If you don't have time to watch the whole video, start at 2:08 to see the movements in action.

Paau Choih as Positioning Before a Counter-Strike



Paau Choih can also be used as the longhand version of a slip, to get to the outside of your opponent's line of attack. In this video circa 2:11, Kong Fan Wei (Hop Gar) demonstrates the use a Paau Choih as "defense" against an overhand strike, but proceeds from this position into a counter attack. Since it is only a simple demonstration, he stops the motion near the point of contact without hitting his student (clearly visible at 2:46), but as can be seen in the form, the technique after the first Paau Choih is another full, longhand, "to the moon Alice!" Paau Choih.

Unfortunately, the flow of the application isn't fully demonstrated - as this video is part of a series to teach the form. To my understanding, as such techniques have been taught to me, it should move from one to the other with no pause, (again, reference David Rogers in the first video at 2:08 for the idea of flow). This either effects the noted follow-up strike or (if the opponent attempts a cross) places you back on the outside position again from the other side.


In this video, you can also see Chris Childs (his base art is Choy Li Fut, but his lineage teaches some Hop Gar) positioning to the outside before a low straight counter-strike at 0:37. In my lineage, Paau Choih is followed by a low straight punch A LOT. At 3:49, Chris's student attempts this Paau Choih during some light sparring and Chris replies with the same sequence.

Paau Choih as Limb Destruction


David Rogers and Michael Parrella talked about limb disruption as a strike to the limbs (1:35). In this video circa 5:25, Steven Ventura (my teacher's teacher) talks about attacking the elbow joint. He's using a Jyu Geng Paau Choih (which is basically the same as the shorter uppercut that was brought up by JowGaWolf), but I personally prefer this application with the longer Paau Choih at full extension.

Consider, if you will, the position that Kong Fan Wei was in when he got to the outside of the overhand strike. If he turned toward his opponent, and brought the one fist down hard over-top the opponents arm (kind of like the slight cover over-top that Ventura performs) while the other fist shot to the sky, making contact anywhere at or above the elbow, it becomes a very violent arm break (or break attempt).

Chris Childs shows the same application concept in his video at 2:20.

---------------------------

End Notes: I really have no intentions of being on this forum much. If you have any questions/comments/concerns, I can be most easily reached via Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Oracle3927

And the mystery is revealed.
 

JowGaWolf

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With that in mind, we don't hit targets; we hit through targets. Not to be confused with the common notion of penetrating a few inches past the surface of a target (as anyone would learn with a basic jab), but it's more like the swing of a bat, where the striking vector is a full swinging motion that continues well through & past the point of impact.
This is how I understood that punch when it was explained to me that night, because it's the same thing that was told to me as along with the statement about techniques getting smaller in a real fight. By smaller I mean people have a tendency to shortens things up in a fight. So if it's trained small in practice then it will only get smaller in a fight. I remember this conversation because it came as a result of my Jow Ga Punches. Where I wasn't extending long enough with the punch in the way that Lama Pai works.


While it's debatable whether this methodology truly provides "an edge" as Parrella states circa 2:22
I understand what he's talking about because I use it often. I don't know about edge, but I can land it with certainty. I actually have a video of me doing this technique. The punch is fast and deceiving, so if you do this punch during sparring then you have to really watch out for your partner's safety. Don't go blasting it thinking that it won't do much. This technique that they are speaking of is a common discussion in Thursday's sparring class right on along with me saying / yelling "Use Jow Ga technique" and not just generic punches. In sparring I use the knuckle down version just in case I connect. In a "real world use" I would use the knuckle up version so that my opponent's chin isn't stabbing me in the back of my hand. I want my knuckles to hit under the chin and not the back of my hand to hit it.

As for the second video I can see where my lack of understanding is. Where the Paau Choih is used to counter a downward strike, which is a different theory than what I know of for the Paau Choih. Based on the second video I see why we throw our strikes the way we do.

The third video
The big punches have to be followed by something else. Sifu Russel told me to throw a Kup Choih and I did not expecting anything and he kicked me in my side. After he did that I understood why the big wheel punches in Jow Ga are done in combination with something else. I'll have to ask my Sifu if any of the Jow Ga brothers trained with or fought against anyone from Lama Pai or a similar style.

Thanks for clearing the information up for me.
I tried to go to the facebook page and it gave me a Page not Found. I booked marked Sifu's Steve Ventura's youtube page so I can check out some of view some of his videos later on.
 

JowGaWolf

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I want to apologize for the disrespect that I have shown out of ignorance in regards to Lama Pai. I had no idea that my comments were very disrespectful and I'm ashamed that I was too ignorant to know better. It was not my intent or desire to be disrespectful to Lama Pai, its founders, its teachers, or the school. I have the highest respect for their school teachers, and students. I will do better to be honorable to those of Lama Pai and to show the respect that they deserve.
 

JowGaWolf

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FULL DISCLOSURE: CLFSean is my training brother. He and I train at the Lama Pai school to which JowGaWolf referred and I was there the night that JowGaWolf came to visit... I wish that if JowGaWolf had a question about why we perform our techniques a certain way, he would have just asked me (we all know each other IRL, and I work on his side of town, so it would have been much easier to just show him in person instead of hunting down all of these video references), but as it's become a matter of public discussion, I will try my best to provide a thorough-ish answer.

Lama Pai, Hop Gar, and Bak Hok Pai are effectively different branches of the same root art and are often categorized as Southern Longhand Chinese Martial Arts (along with Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar and Jow Gar). In our particular lineage, a lot of the apparent force at a basic/beginner level is centrifugal in nature. We make sharp use of the waist/torso to motivate the limbs through broad arcs. With that in mind, we don't hit targets; we hit through targets. Not to be confused with the common notion of penetrating a few inches past the surface of a target (as anyone would learn with a basic jab), but it's more like the swing of a bat, where the striking vector is a full swinging motion that continues well through & past the point of impact.

To do this intelligently for a fight requires a bit of setup. We don't just start off with large, swinging motions against an opponent in a modern fighting posture; one has to create an opening through positioning. Nor is this the only principle upon which Lama Pai operates, but I hope this suffices for a quick & dirty explanation of this principle as it is relevant to why our Paau Choihs might seem "overextended" in the eyes of someone who doesn't understand our system.

Theory aside, now onto examples & applications:

Paau Choih as a Strike


This is a video discussion between Michael Parrella (Lama Pai; same lineage) and David Rogers (Hop Gar). While it's debatable whether this methodology truly provides "an edge" as Parrella states circa 2:22, they fairly well explain several ways for how Paau Choih can be used as a strike. If you don't have time to watch the whole video, start at 2:08 to see the movements in action.

Paau Choih as Positioning Before a Counter-Strike



Paau Choih can also be used as the longhand version of a slip, to get to the outside of your opponent's line of attack. In this video circa 2:11, Kong Fan Wei (Hop Gar) demonstrates the use a Paau Choih as "defense" against an overhand strike, but proceeds from this position into a counter attack. Since it is only a simple demonstration, he stops the motion near the point of contact without hitting his student (clearly visible at 2:46), but as can be seen in the form, the technique after the first Paau Choih is another full, longhand, "to the moon Alice!" Paau Choih.

Unfortunately, the flow of the application isn't fully demonstrated - as this video is part of a series to teach the form. To my understanding, as such techniques have been taught to me, it should move from one to the other with no pause, (again, reference David Rogers in the first video at 2:08 for the idea of flow). This either effects the noted follow-up strike or (if the opponent attempts a cross) places you back on the outside position again from the other side.


In this video, you can also see Chris Childs (his base art is Choy Li Fut, but his lineage teaches some Hop Gar) positioning to the outside before a low straight counter-strike at 0:37. In my lineage, Paau Choih is followed by a low straight punch A LOT. At 3:49, Chris's student attempts this Paau Choih during some light sparring and Chris replies with the same sequence.

Paau Choih as Limb Destruction


David Rogers and Michael Parrella talked about limb disruption as a strike to the limbs (1:35). In this video circa 5:25, Steven Ventura (my teacher's teacher) talks about attacking the elbow joint. He's using a Jyu Geng Paau Choih (which is basically the same as the shorter uppercut that was brought up by JowGaWolf), but I personally prefer this application with the longer Paau Choih at full extension.

Consider, if you will, the position that Kong Fan Wei was in when he got to the outside of the overhand strike. If he turned toward his opponent, and brought the one fist down hard over-top the opponents arm (kind of like the slight cover over-top that Ventura performs) while the other fist shot to the sky, making contact anywhere at or above the elbow, it becomes a very violent arm break (or break attempt).

Chris Childs shows the same application concept in his video at 2:20.

---------------------------

End Notes: I really have no intentions of being on this forum much. If you have any questions/comments/concerns, I can be most easily reached via Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Oracle3927
I apologize for being disrespectful to you, your system, your school, your founders, and your teachers and you brother and sisters of Lama Pai. My disrespect will not happen again.
 

JowGaWolf

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Ummm... nope.

We don't exaggerate. We have specific reasons for doing specific techniques a specific way. Not everything is what you see or are shown.
Sean I apologize for being disrespectful to you, your system, your school, your founders, and your teachers and you brother and sisters of Lama Pai. Instead of making assumptions about the technique as it's taught in your school I should have ask. I am ashamed of my ignorance and the disrespect that I have shown towards you and your school. My disrespect will not happen again.
 

Oracle3927

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This is how I understood that punch when it was explained to me that night, because it's the same thing that was told to me as along with the statement about techniques getting smaller in a real fight. By smaller I mean people have a tendency to shortens things up in a fight. So if it's trained small in practice then it will only get smaller in a fight. I remember this conversation because it came as a result of my Jow Ga Punches. Where I wasn't extending long enough with the punch in the way that Lama Pai works.

This sounds like something I would have said, and falls into the category of " We don't just start off with large, swinging motions against an opponent in a modern fighting posture; one has to create an opening through positioning." Most fighters know, that if someone starts swinging a bat at them, all they have to do is beat the timing by coming in straight (much like beating a Kahp Choih with a side kick). So, if you're "the bat wielder," some viable option include using a couple of butt-strokes, choking up on the bat to swing in smaller/tighter arcs, and/or attacking the oponent's limbs to clear out the space between you, so that you can get into a position for a full swing.

If it was me who told you the above statement (and that part about "if it's trained small in practice then it will only get small in a fight" sounds exactly like something I would say, as compared to my brothers, coming out of some of the other things I've studied), then my apologies for explaining so poorly. (I'm not an expert or a master-teacher; I'm just a student and likely fumbled my way through what I was saying. Again, my apologies.)

As for the second video I can see where my lack of understanding is. Where the Paau Choih is used to counter a downward strike, which is a different theory than what I know of for the Paau Choih. Based on the second video I see why we throw our strikes the way we do.

The example from the video just happens to be a downward strike, but it can be used to position for a counter against other angles of attack. It's basically, just bridging (or attacking the limb) while stepping out of the line of attack.

I'll have to ask my Sifu if any of the Jow Ga brothers trained with or fought against anyone from Lama Pai or a similar style.

The stories I've heard where Lama Pai and Jow Ga were together at the same events often come from two generations back. You may want to check with your Sigung or reach out to Ron Wheeler.

[QUOTE"JowGaWolf, post: 1842746, member: 33903"]I tried to go to the facebook page and it gave me a Page not Found.[/QUOTE]

Sorry. If the link doesn't work for anyone, you can try looking me up by name & locale: "Philip Michael Hugh Lawson" out of Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

And the mystery is revealed.

Dude, it took about an hour of going through several dozen videos just to find those four videos which provided a decent demonstration to act as examples for the explanation. I hope that it was of more value to you than just "the mystery is revealed".
 

Tez3

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Sorry. If the link doesn't work for anyone, you can try looking me up by name & locale: "Philip Michael Hugh Lawson" out of Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

It worked for me ( I'm a nosy bugger) glad I did, air force people are always good to know ( even if it's not the RAF :D)
 

clfsean

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Sean I apologize for being disrespectful to you, your system, your school, your founders, and your teachers and you brother and sisters of Lama Pai. Instead of making assumptions about the technique as it's taught in your school I should have ask. I am ashamed of my ignorance and the disrespect that I have shown towards you and your school. My disrespect will not happen again.

M ... well spoken & gladly accepted. Let's move past this & continue growing.
 

JowGaWolf

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It worked for me ( I'm a nosy bugger) glad I did, air force people are always good to know ( even if it's not the RAF :D)
I had to be logged into Facebook in order for it to work. I wasn't logged in the first 2 times I tried.
 

drop bear

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Dude, it took about an hour of going through several dozen videos just to find those four videos which provided a decent demonstration to act as examples for the explanation. I hope that it was of more value to you than just "the mystery is revealed".

Been there myself. I feel your pain. But my only issue was clifsean gave a crap response and tried to dress it up as some sort of too secret to tell you technique.

You explained it how clifsean probably should have done from the out set.

Job done. Nice work.
 

clfsean

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Been there myself. I feel your pain. But my only issue was clifsean gave a crap response and tried to dress it up as some sort of too secret to tell you technique.

You explained it how clifsean probably should have done from the out set.

Job done. Nice work.

Except I'm not him. It wasn't a crap response. It wasn't what you expected.

So kindly put me on ignore & you no longer have to deal with my crap responses in the future. I'll do the same for you.
 
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