Kung Fu vs MMA

Steve

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Fighting doesn't look all the same to me. Not even just a little. No one can look at how I fight and say that I look like karate, wing chun, boxing, ninjitsu, tkd, or any other system that is not a part of Jow Ga or similar to Jow Ga.
Crazy, I mention you in a post and like the genie, BAM, you are there. :D
 

JowGaWolf

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If I were a betting man, I'd bet that @JowGaWolf 's fighting will look like Jow Ga. I've read enough about how he trains to believe that. But I also think he'd learn a lot about his training and skill level if he competed outside of his style.
100% correct. I also learn more about my style by competing against people form other systems. I really have a distaste for Jow Ga vs Jow Ga and the more I train the more I really can't stand it. Style A vs Style A is very limiting in terms of me gaining valuable knowledge and understanding about Jow Ga techniques.
 

Flying Crane

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Fighting doesn't look all the same to me. Not even just a little. No one can look at how I fight and say that I look like karate, wing chun, boxing, ninjitsu, tkd, or any other system that is not a part of Jow Ga or similar to Jow Ga.
I know you do jow ga, but I don't know much about the method. I suspect that if I saw you in a real fight, in self defense, there may be some tell-tale identifying issues that would reveal the fact that you have training. But in the big picture, in the hostile combative adrenaline dumping chaotic combat, it would look much like anything else.

Your sparring may look more like jow ga. But that is a different environment.
 

Tony Dismukes

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no no no...EVERYBODY knows that ALL Kung Fu (Wushu) fights look like this


:D
Yeah, the original fight video was missing the sound effects on every strike and block. Also neither of the fighters stopped to comment on their opponent's skills or boast about their own style. Clearly not authentic Kung Fu.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Not really people are just bored of these type of videos. No one actually cares about which style wins
We can all learn from these kind of video. What's more important to train how to stop a guy who runs toward you and tries to knock your head off? We should all treat that kind of training as high priority. It's strategy, strategy, and still strategy.

Move around, don't be a sitting duck.
 

Xue Sheng

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Yeah, the original fight video was missing the sound effects on every strike and block. Also neither of the fighters stopped to comment on their opponent's skills or boast about their own style. Clearly not authentic Kung Fu.

Its the END fight Tony...they never EVER comment during the end fight....all the comments about skill where prior to and leading up to this...and I am hearing the sound effects just fine....not sure why you don't.....but.....sheesh...you couldn't have made it more blatantly OBVIOUS you are NOT a Kung Fu guy.....:D
 

JowGaWolf

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in the hostile combative adrenaline dumping chaotic combat, it would look much like anything else.
It would look like Jow Ga Kung Fu but more intense. I would not abandon what I train any more than a BJJ practitioner would abandon their training in a real fight. I've been using Jow Ga techniques for so long now that I don't know any other way to fight.
 

Flying Crane

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It would look like Jow Ga Kung Fu but more intense. I would not abandon what I train any more than a BJJ practitioner would abandon their training in a real fight. I've been using Jow Ga techniques for so long now that I don't know any other way to fight.
I've not made any suggestion to abandon what you train.
 

Flying Crane

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Yes I know. I'm just saying that I don't know any other way to fight other than to use Jow Ga.
I'm not saying that you would not be using jow ga.

I am saying that you WOULD be using jow ga, but what that means and what that looks like in the chaos of a genuine fight or self defense situation is not what most people assume.

If you really understand your jow ga, then it is the principles that are most important. The techniques, while useful and important, are an expression of the principles. In practice, the techniques are often exaggerated, as a way to help emphasize the principles. When that skill has been developed, then, IN ACTUAL USE, that exaggeration can be dropped, and the principles are still being utilized, on a more compact and un-exaggerated technique.

This is using your jow ga. Not what it LOOKS like, but rather, the principles underneath, that power your technique, regardless of what it looks like.

The exaggerated training methods can leave you vulnerable if you try to use them in a fight. But the exaggeration is not meant to be used in the fight. It is a training methodology, meant to emphasize the principles and the body mechanics.

Maybe this issue seems so clear to me because my system uses a very exaggerated training method. Maybe I'm on that extreme end of the spectrum, while others are less so.
 

gpseymour

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With all due respect, your intonations as to my motivation for posting this video couldn't be more wrong.
As per competition, without it you are left with only faith and dogma, and in my opinion those two ingredients ruin rather than make effective martial arts training.
A formal competition isn't a necessary element in testing a style's effectiveness. It's a helpful one in some ways, but not the only way of challenging dogma.
 

gpseymour

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That's why I compete against kids. Pads the win column.

Seriously, though, losing is a valuable and necessary part of competition. Unless you want to be a pro, it literally doesn't matter whether you win or lose. Winning is validation that what you worked on in preparation for that competition worked. But win or lose, you will learn a lot about what you are good at and what you are not good at.
Okay, Kramer.
 

gpseymour

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A good example of withering and stagnating is aikido. Not my judgment. Aikidoka have acknowledged this and are concerned. It's pretty awesome to see so many dedicated aikidoka making a conscious effort to reverse the trend.

another is Tai Chi. Xue Sheng has addressed this in detail in some of his recent posts.
I'm not sure what "withering" means in this context, but there has certainly been a lot of stagnation in Ueshiba's art.
 

Steve

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A formal competition isn't a necessary element in testing a style's effectiveness. It's a helpful one in some ways, but not the only way of challenging dogma.
Not about challenging dogma, although that's a by product of it, in my opinion.

Regarding testing a style's effectiveness, I can think of a few ways to do that. Competition. Working as a professional cop, bouncer, body guard, soldier, or soldier of fortune. Criminal.

Only one of those is practical and accessible for the average person. Can you think of others? I can't. I can think of other ways to train that are great. But training is not testing. One leads to the other.
 

Steve

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I'm not sure what "withering" means in this context, but there has certainly been a lot of stagnation in Ueshiba's art.
yeah, I don't know if I'd use the term "withering" but I don't think I'm speaking out of school to mention the stagnation to which you refer. :)
 

gpseymour

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I agree. Not knocking it. Just the great style vs style showdowns are foolish. 50% of the participants will lose...it doesn't mean one style is better only that individual at that time won.
In the long run it comes down to how one trains their particular whatever. Do they train to actually fight someone who fights or do they train it to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight. How much time is spent on actually developing fighting skills, or self defense skills, or forms skills, or fitness skills. All will have different level of fighting abilities. And then there is the Luck factor. Over the years have seen a lot of competitions where the less skill, less refined fighter who was getting a lesson suddenly get a lucky shot in and win. Does that mean they are better fighters or were they just fortunate to get in a good shot?
When I watch style-v-style videos, I'm looking for the ones where I see some interesting approach or tactic that seems to fit one style well against the other. It's not so much for me about which style is "better", rather it's a chance to see what works against a style and to try to figure out if it's particular to the opposing style or something that can be adopted.
 

gpseymour

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Fighting doesn't look all the same to me. Not even just a little. No one can look at how I fight and say that I look like karate, wing chun, boxing, ninjitsu, tkd, or any other system that is not a part of Jow Ga or similar to Jow Ga.
I'd agree on your style, JGW. For many styles, though, there are some quite similar postures and approaches used. For those styles, it can be much harder to pinpoint anything that's particularly "signature" of that style in actual use, even if it's more recognizable in practice (due to practice methods used).
 

gpseymour

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yeah, I don't know if I'd use the term "withering" but I don't think I'm speaking out of school to mention the stagnation to which you refer. :)
There may be withering, too. I'm just not sure what that would mean, unless it refers to an art that's shrinking dramatically in following (and that doesn't seem to be happening in any unexpected fashion in Aikido, just yet).
 

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