Korean Kung Fu?

[white belt]

Any CMA people ever hear of an art called Ship Pal Gae? Pal Gae is Korean for Bagua I believe. I have some forms called Pal Gae 1, 2, 3, etc. There are supposedly 8 of these forms. There is the standard Bagua palms open "on guard" position in a few moves. These forms are not linear or circle walking of nature. The stances are performed very much in place taking only single steps out from the center starting point in different directions. Pal Gae 1 for example has 16 moves. I learned these forms while mixed up with the Wacky Chung Moo Quan bunch and these forms are one of the few reasons I stuck around for awhile. The forms seem of a Taoist Yoga origin and they really twist/open the joints. A lot of twisting. The history of MA, as told by CMQ, is all maligned and just plain not true. I would really like to find the TRUTH about these forms and where they came from. They are not like anything I have seen in any Bagua/CMA reference thus far. They do enhance mobility very well.

white belt

 

[brothershaw]

I saw a little ship pal gi, once it looked like northern/ shaolin longfist type stuff to me, I didnt ask any questions and dont really know anything else about it. I definitely didnt see anything that looked like bagua to me, from what bagua i have seen before. But who knows....

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by white belt
I learned these forms while mixed up with the Wacky Chung Moo Quan bunch and these forms are one of the few reasons I stuck around for awhile.

I did a little research into the Oom Yung Doe/Chung Moo Quan folks here in the Seattle area, specifically into their claims regarding their alleged practice of Bagua... I think that your question as to whether it is legitimate Bagua or not is answered by considering who you learned it from in the first place.

The history of MA, as told by CMQ, is all maligned and just plain not true. I would really like to find the TRUTH about these forms and where they came from. They are not like anything I have seen in any Bagua/CMA reference thus far. They do enhance mobility very well.

white belt

Well, it seems that amongst the rest of the garbage, at least one kernel of truth exists. It does seem that much of the history of martial arts is incorrect, and amounts more to myth, legend and propaganda.

There are forms of linear Bagua that display the uses of Bagua methods in a linear fashion (one common misconception regarding Bagua is that you actually fight by walking in a circle; therefore, circular forms are not necessarily an indicator of authentic Bagua). There are drills that remain in place.

Good luck on your search for the truth.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[white belt]

Yiliquan 1,

Thank you for your post. Yes, I am aware that the CMQ guys are bogus in most of their training, but I found a few things that REALLY changed my physique for the better. If I have the half assed version of these forms, then ALL THE MORE REASON to find out where they are from and learn more. The forms are too complex for someone to have just thrown together on their own. I am thinking these were paid for and brought into CMQ as a selling point. They used these as "proof" they had tools for higher body development. I am also aware of the circle walking being done as a body / mind type of conditioning. I have always looked at it as a moving form of Chi Kung. The fighting aspects were taught seperate there. I have reviewed various resources materials such as Tim Cartmell, Park Bok Nam, etc. and have not seen any of these forms. I am a TKD school owner and have seen / felt very good benefits in my TKD forms using the waist / hip turning focus from the bit of Bagua I have had. My TKD GM is very pleased with my direction of development. I have not brought up the the CMQ / Bagua recently to him because he feels insulted at their existance period. I can agree and understand, but it still does not explain my questions. I am convinced some truth was mixed in the CMQ BS and if I had to bet, these forms would be the closest thing. Approaching CMQ is out of the question. Those guys are stone cold wacked out. I believe my pursuit of what this thread is about can further accelerate my progress. If any more suggestions, please let loose.

Thank you,
white belt

 

[Matt Stone]

Where in the midwest are you? PM me if you don't want that to be public knowledge...

While, to my knowledge (limited as it is), there are no Bagua teachers in the overall midwest area (I am from Nebraska originally, and the only folks I ever knew of doing Xingyi, Taiji or Bagua was our school), if I knew where you were from I could try to look into finding some folks in your area that could help you.

While I understand where your teacher is coming from, I am always perturbed by the folks that get upset at the idea of their students pursuing other avenues while continuing in their main art... Not to disparage your teacher in particular, but it has been my experience that teachers that do that feel threatened somehow by their students' branching out. Perhaps your teacher simply has some bad blood spilt between himself and the CMQ people; I don't know. I know that a particular school that was a wannabe rival to our school got under my skin, and while I have never felt threatened by their existence (many of their students converted to our school when we competed against their original school in tournaments - they saw just how phony their teacher was), there was bad blood between our school and theirs...

I hope you are able to find the information you are looking for. I apologize if I sounded like I was simply slamming anything related to or dealing with CMQ. I am glad you found something good out of your experience with them.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[white belt]

Yiliquan 1,

No apologies necessary about slamming CMQ. They are reaping what they have sown in my opinion. I know just enough about training to realize that some of the stuff wasn't all bad, that's all. I am perturbed a bit at them, but the old "lemonade out of lemons" thing you know?

My Korean GM recognizes their fakery and has little time for charlatans is all. He doesn't mind me training with other legitimate systems. He had no problem with me studying Judo with someone else in town and learning submissions with a third group in MMA. He just doesn't want me to waste time with another CMQ experience somewhere. I can respect that. The fact that the CMQ leader is Korean sticks in his craw pretty much too. Now the CMQ boys used the "train only with us" tactic. That bugged me!

I am aware of Bagua being taught in Columbus, Ohio and elsewhere in Illinois last I checked, but with working a day job and teaching TKD six days a week, it would be hard to travel out of town and find a teacher that could accomodate my schedule presently. My awareness of the prerequisite display of respect needed for a potential teacher barrs me from requesting them to accommodate my circumstance. My concept of manners anyway. I must sit tight for a while until I can alter my circumstance a bit w/o taking from my present students and what little family life I now have. I thought the MT forum might help me get lucky with my annoying little plight without having to travel. Maybe not.

Obviously my question about these forms needs more elaboration or a search in a different direction maybe. I am patient enough and still have hope that the right person may stumble upon this thread.

Thank you,
white belt

 

[Matt Stone]

If it is possible, though I don't personally believe internal arts can be learned this way, try to attend a seminar. At least in that context and environment you would be able to get a perspective on the forms you now know from a Bagua standpoint (maybe?).

If you ever find yourself in Omaha, or at least heading in that direction, I know the Yiliquan people would happily entertain whatever questions you had.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[white belt]

Yiliquan 1,

I am flattered at the open door offered. I understand about the technical process and how the "in person" factor is prime above all. I think Lao Tzu said "To speak of the Tao is to not know it". I welcome a "polite thumping" in the name of learning. I must monitor my warped humor closely so that the "Watchers" don't exile me! This forum has been good for me in improving my ability to discuss hot topics without getting hot myself.

Respectfully,
white belt

 

[Matt Stone]

white belt -

Should you ever find yourself up here in the Seattle/Tacoma area, pleaes drop in on our Yiliquan training... While I can't speak for the Omaha folks beyond knowing they would welcome any opportunity to help educate someone on the proper methods of a particular aspect of our art (we do Xingyiquan, Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Baixingquan all under the umbrella of Yiliquan), I know I can say with all certainty that if you came up here, you would be welcome to not only ask questions, but train and walk away with some deeper insight into what you are trying to do.

Good luck on your quest.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: