Korean forms and applications

[Kong Soo Do]

This thread is for the discussion of any/all Korean forms and the applications you as an instructor and/or student teach or have been taught associated with them. No right or wrong answers. Post a video or link to the form you'd like to discuss and give us a post describing what you believe to be the application associated with the movement segment in question. Thank you in advance for staying on topic and respecting others opinions, experience and training.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I will offer one. Taegeuk sajang:

 

[Gnarlie]

Look forward to hearing them. Personally, I don't really care about the name, history or pedigree of a particular motion or movement. If it works effectively for a particular purpose within the principles of the art in question, that's good enough for me, and in my view doesn't alter or sully the philosophical and symbolic value the pattern may contain.

It would be great if people could post video examples of the movement under discussion, for those of us who may not know the pattern it's from.

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[miguksaram]

I will offer one. Taegeuk sajang:

Made it easier to watch and post thoughts.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I had an article published in Totaly TKD on this topic.
At the basic level of the Chang Hon forms, the text stipulates applications for movements. Many people think these are meant to be exclusive application when the opposite is true.
At the basic level, the stated appliucation / purpose is a tool to help you understand how to move. How you move depends on the need for power, speed, balance, distance and direction of the opponent. Knowing these factors makes it easier to conceptualize how to move. How you move is the concept. The application helps you understand the concept. The application is a tool.
Being part of a large group and having standard applications helps get people on the same page. However it can lead to a tunnle vison of sorts thinking that moves can only be used one way.
This is not a new or unique concept. Karate Kid had "Wax On, Wax off" where he learned to move firts and then learned application. Peyton Quinn's book (either Bouncer's guide or Real Fighting) makes the same comment about the application being a tool.
Teaching the textbook application is an efficient mwans for teaching the desired move. However, once the student has some competence with this than variations can be introduced. How many and how large th variation is limited by your imagination and practical considerations. Although at some point the variation may be so large that the original move has no relationship.

Here is the textbook application for Won Hyo and variations. These videos are meant to be demonstrative. They are not intended to be instructional or example of combat speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksj4AvRz8_0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFnQBjpZGYU&feature=channel&list=UL

 

[Gnarlie]

Just regarding the applications shown at the end of this video, the jebipoom mokchigi application I'm fine with, but the pyonsonkeut chigi application is weak against a punch directed with intent toward the solar plexus. The pressing block does not do enough to divert the punch, leaving you taking one in the bread basket. Any thoughts?

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[Daniel Sullivan]

I will offer one. Taegeuk sajang:

Taegeuk Sajang opens facing north in junbi seogi (ready stance) and then facing left (west) and stepping with the left foot into dwi seogi (back stance) while executing sonnal makki (knife hand defense). This is followed by executing nullo makki (pressing block) with the left hand and stepping with the right foot and executing pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi (spear hand thrust) to the solar plexus with the right hand. The taekwondoin then turns around 180 degrees (east) and repeats the same techniques but with the opposing hand and leading foot.

The knife hand defense is against a punching attack.
1. If the attacker is punching with the left hand, the block can transition into a wrist grab, pulling the opponent's left arm to your left, thus shifting you out of range of his other hand, and allowing you to apply an open hand press at either elbow or shoulder, or to apply a damaging open hand strike to the elbow.
2. If the attacker is punching with the right hand, the block can transition into a wrist grab, pulling the opponent's right arm to your left, shifting his ballance to his right foot, allowing you to sweep the leg while pressing or striking with your right hand.

Pressing defense uses a circular motion to bring your left palm down on the incoming attack and press downward.
This can also transition into a grab that would allow you to either retain the attacker's right while striking with your own right hand, or to execute a wrist lock take down using both hands.

The third movement is to turn north and execute jebi pum mok chigi (swallow form neck strike). In this technique, a sonnal olgul makki (knife hand face defense) is used simultaneously with a sonnal chigi (knife hand strike) to the neck.

With the knife hand defense, you are defending against a face/head level punch. As an open handed defense, it can transition to a grab of the attacker's right wrist. The same option for a sweep or a follow up strike that was present with sonnal makki is present here.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just regarding the applications shown at the end of this video, the jebipoom mokchigi application I'm fine with, but the pyonsonkeut chigi application is weak against a punch directed with intent toward the solar plexus. The pressing block does not do enough to divert the punch, leaving you taking one in the bread basket. Any thoughts?

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Pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi/spear hand is really a separate application from the pressing block. As I have said before, taegeuk pumse are not intended to replicate some kind of imaginary fight, but to introduce and reinforce specific techniques at different levels. In practical application, one would not simply stand in a back stance after executing sonnal makki, make the nullo makki, and then counterattack.

Generally, the form is learned and trained in and the individual techniques are also learned and trained in separately, both solo and with partners.

 

[puunui]

This thread is for the discussion of any/all Korean forms and the applications you as an instructor and/or student teach or have been taught associated with them. No right or wrong answers. Post a video or link to the form you'd like to discuss and give us a post describing what you believe to be the application associated with the movement segment in question. Thank you in advance for staying on topic and respecting others opinions, experience and training.

Why don't you start the discussion off with one of the "Korean forms" that you practice. I know you created one, but have you learned any "Korean forms", and if so, what are the applications that you find in them?

 

[puunui]

I will offer one. Taegeuk sajang:

I took a Kukkiwon seminar and the demonostrator above was one of the instructors. I know he toured the US during those Kukkiwon Instructor Courses.

 

[puunui]

Pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi/spear hand is really a separate application from the pressing block. As I have said before, taegeuk pumse are not intended to replicate some kind of imaginary fight, but to introduce and reinforce specific techniques at different levels. In practical application, one would not simply stand in a back stance after executing sonnal makki, make the nullo makki, and then counterattack.

That move also relates if you have a knife or knives in your hand(s).

 

[d1jinx]

I took a Kukkiwon seminar and the demonostrator above was one of the instructors. I know he toured the US during those Kukkiwon Instructor Courses.

I too have taken 2 seminars where he was the Instructor. Very good. Very serious. But very friendly during a 1 on 1. I think the language barrier was the biggest handicap. Alot of times he was very thorough and descriptive in Korean, and the translator had 1 maybe 2 sentences in english. I wish I were more fluent in korean to better understand his instruction. Although his actions was clear, the "why" and detail wasnt due to the translators.

 

[d1jinx]

Pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi/spear hand is really a separate application from the pressing block. As I have said before, taegeuk pumse are not intended to replicate some kind of imaginary fight, but to introduce and reinforce specific techniques at different levels. In practical application, one would not simply stand in a back stance after executing sonnal makki, make the nullo makki, and then counterattack.

Generally, the form is learned and trained in and the individual techniques are also learned and trained in separately, both solo and with partners.

i have often wondered why the spear hand was introduced so early in rank. I remember being excited as a child to learn the cool new move, but the first time I tried it, I almost broke my fingers.

 

[dancingalone]

i have often wondered why the spear hand was introduced so early in rank. I remember being excited as a child to learn the cool new move, but the first time I tried it, I almost broke my fingers.

So you can start conditioning your fingers early on?

 

[puunui]

Here one application. In Palgwae 7 Jang, there are two hujin steps (slide back) followed by a middle punch with the rear hand. A sparring application for this is to do the two hujin steps, and instead of punching, you throw a back leg roundhouse kick counter, the theory being that in taekwondo, we do with our feet what we other martial arts do with their hands. So in the poomsae the two hujin steps are followed by a punch, but in sparring, the two hujin steps would be followed by a kick.

Another application from Taegeuk 5 Jang. The opening sequence features a down block followed by a hammer fist to the head. A sparring application of this would be a front leg roundhouse kick followed by a same leg front leg ax kick to the head.

Both of the above are fairly common or easily seen competition sparring applications for poomsae movement. The idea of substituting a kick for the poomsae punch, is a key concept in taekwondo. Some or most of us have probably heard this before, and these are a couple of tangible real life examples which do not require overly stretching the poomsae beyond recognition. But these types of "applications" will be difficult to see if you do not know the poomsae, or do not understand or have little or no experience with the modern competition training methods or modern competition sparring. But like the hapkido like applications, these things jump out at you if you are familiar with these principles and training methods in taekwondo. However, it is still my opinion that it is best to train these applications in sparring class, rather than doing the easter egg hunt thing and then going and training. Why add the extra step?

 

[chrispillertkd]

So you can start conditioning your fingers early on?

Finger tip push-ups. Every day!

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

The opening move of taegeuk 1 jang that some said was a hammer fist to the groin. For taekwondoin versed in the modern competition training methods, that movement series (down block, middle punch, landing forward) would or could be a right leg off the line roundhouse kick while at the same time blocking with the left arm in a cover position, landing forward. This is a basic attack, maybe the most basic, which is suitable for a white belt to learn. Again, substitute a kick for the hand strike and you get a sparring "application".

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just regarding the applications shown at the end of this video, the jebipoom mokchigi application I'm fine with, but the pyonsonkeut chigi application is weak against a punch directed with intent toward the solar plexus. The pressing block does not do enough to divert the punch, leaving you taking one in the bread basket. Any thoughts?

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That assumes that a pressing block can only be done downwards. I see poomsae as a way to teach techniques, but only examples. The downward pressing block may be considered the archetype of palmheel blocks, and that is how it's demonstrated in several poomsae. But it can certainly be adapted to other situations, simply by changing the angle at which it is performed.

 

[Gnarlie]

I completely agree that it's adaptable, I was just questioning the practicality of the way it is demonstrated in the video.

With slight adaptations I can make this pressing block work as an elbow or shoulder control, bringing the opponents head down to the level of the fingertip strike, which fits nicely into the nerve filled cavity between the jawline and the neck, or can be adapted to a palm heel blow to the base of the skull.

It doesn't fit too well with the twin knife hand block in that application though.

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[Dirty Dog]

I completely agree that it's adaptable, I was just questioning the practicality of the way it is demonstrated in the video.

With slight adaptations I can make this pressing block work as an elbow or shoulder control, bringing the opponents head down to the level of the fingertip strike, which fits nicely into the nerve filled cavity between the jawline and the neck, or can be adapted to a palm heel blow to the base of the skull.

It doesn't fit too well with the twin knife hand block in that application though.

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The palm heel block (batangson makki) as demonstrated in that poomsae is more directly applicable to stopping a front snap kick or knee aimed at the solar plexus, followed by a spearhand thrust to their solar plexus. It's also a way to get students used to the concept of simultaneous blocks/counter attacks, as opposed to one following the other. For that purpose, the specific combination of block/attack is less important than the CONCEPT.

As has been mentioned before, it's unlikely that the poomsae was intended to show a series of techniques in a way that is directly applicable to fighting, although obviously the individual techniques/combinations can be used.