knuckles to punch with

[Black Bear]

"hard on soft and soft on hard" is pretty universal in MA, it came from China I believe.

Some folks will go so far as to say that in street sd, you should never use a fist, only open-hand strikes. But ask them if they'd punch a guy in the solar plexus, and many of them will look up thoughtfully for a second and say well yes. But then others will say they'll generally never hit at the body because it is often covered with clothing or flab, or muscle...

 

[moving target]

First, when figuring out force imparted with a punch, a 1" punch could in theory have as much power as an all out swing delivered on the same trajectory simply because maximum force is gennerated in a punch by moving your body weight into the blow, and a 1" punch is just a punch that starts it's motion when the hand is 1" away from the target. In other words you can move your body however you want in the 1" punch, so you can motivate your mass in a forward motion just as in any other punch and thus impart the same (or simular) force.

Second, people's (well people who are in shape) maximum punch speed is usualy limited by the maximum speed their muscle fibers can contract and by how many muscle fibers are recruited. Even though your hand speed does increase through out your range of motion, the rate of acceleration is not as great twards the end of your range of motion as it is when you start the motion. So distance to travle isn't as big of a deal as it may seem.

If the issue is injury of a bone, bones break when they are forced to absorb force.. So when you throw a punch and impact a target, if the target does not absorb the force your hand must. If your soft tissue can't than your bones must. If The target absorbs more force your hand doesn't hurt. If it absorbs less force than you can break something in your hand. How much force is absorbed by your target depends on a lot of things, like what direction and how fast The target is moving, it's mass, how easily it,s structure will yield and what angles your weapon is travaling it's speed and the mechanics of the motion (how much body mass is behind it). I think a break in the hand probably has more to do with these things as well as the specific condition of the bone (that breaks) in question than wheather you use your first two or last three knuckles. I realy don't think there is any statistical information of much use in this debate so for most practical purposes this whole discusion is somewhat pointless, but in the anecdotal case of tyson punching some guy, what specificly broke? How did tyson punch? and does anyone (even tyson?) know wether or not he had an exsisting injury to said bone? (I mean if he fractured it in a fight and than goes and punds a heavy bag 6 days a week than it isn't going to heal properly if at all).

Now the bones of the metacarpus are largest to smallest from 2nd-5th but if you land a blow with three knuckles instead of two than the force should be equaly displaced over the three.. Now of course that depends on the specific anatomy of the individual (wether or not the individual's 4th metacarpal is impacting the target), but from everything I see concerning the bones.. the 4th and 5th together should be able to carry the same load as the 2nd... Now if you hit improperly than that's a whole diffrent argument. I would also point out an improper hit could very well sprain your wrist and leave you in a simular situation. but presumming you hit properly and you have good bone health, than I realy can't see there being much diffrence between a 2 knuckle and 3 knuckle punch, all else being equal.

 

[Black Bear]

"Second, people's (well people who are in shape) maximum punch speed is usualy limited by the maximum speed their muscle fibers can contract and by how many muscle fibers are recruited. Even though your hand speed does increase through out your range of motion, the rate of acceleration is not as great twards the end of your range of motion as it is when you start the motion. So distance to travle isn't as big of a deal as it may seem."

Incorrect. Acceleration is greatest at the beginning, and is negative toward the end. But velocity is greatest midway, IIRC about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through.

"Now the bones of the metacarpus are largest to smallest from 2nd-5th but if you land a blow with three knuckles instead of two than the force should be equaly displaced over the three.. Now of course that depends on the specific anatomy of the individual (wether or not the individual's 4th metacarpal is impacting the target), but from everything I see concerning the bones.. the 4th and 5th together should be able to carry the same load as the 2nd... "
Interesting thought, that you'll do better with a distributed load. But folks just don't break their first two metacarpals when punching, very much. Personally I'm sticking with that.

 

[moving target]

Your punch slows at the end because of your proprioseptors, you can trin your arm not to slow down with something like plyometric training.

just because you don't hear about people breaking their index and middle knuckle doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are so many factors involved in why you would break a bone in your hand I realy can't see much of a valid argument for punching either way based on the argument that you can break something.

 

[Black Bear]

Originally posted by moving target
Your punch slows at the end because of your proprioseptors, you can trin your arm not to slow down with something like plyometric training.

just because you don't hear about people breaking their index and middle knuckle doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are so many factors involved in why you would break a bone in your hand I realy can't see much of a valid argument for punching either way based on the argument that you can break something.

I never said I never heard of folks breaking their index/middle metacarpals. I said it doesn't happen very much. Don't put words in the Angry Laser Monkey's mouth or he will bite your friggin' hand off. Yeah.

Your punch slows at the end yes, because of proprioceptors and yes you can train this out (even punching exclusively into bags as opposed to dead air will help) but remember, you are putting stress on your elbow joint, and besides you do want to pull it back quick. So I don't know if you want to really go there. In any event, I misunderstood the post I was originally responding to, so n/m.

 

[8253]

I dont exactly pay that much attention to which knuckles I hit with when in a fight. In most fights you dont have time to think about things such as how to turn your fist or at what angle it should be at to be able to hit with certain knuckles. As long as it connects in a good place it dosent matter much.

If it breaks, oh well, pain is only temporary

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by 8253
I dont exactly pay that much attention to which knuckles I hit with when in a fight. In most fights you dont have time to think about things such as how to turn your fist or at what angle it should be at to be able to hit with certain knuckles. As long as it connects in a good place it dosent matter much.

If it breaks, oh well, pain is only temporary

Do you get the spoon to your mouth every time you eat a bowl of cereal? That is called neuro-muscular memory. Of course you wouldn't pay attention in a fight. The attention is payed in training. You either train to hit with the first two, last three, whole fist, or you don't train at all and just hope for the best. I train to hit with my first two knuckle as a unit. My grandfather taught me that when I was in the fifth grade. Do you honestly believe that at the age of 34 I'm going to accidently start punching with different parts of my fist ,because I won't be have time to think about it when hard pressed? I truly don't know any different; however, I can misjudge and injure my hand, but the decison about how I do it was made a long time ago.

 

[8253]

it is true that you play the way you train, but when you train you do a specific movement or set of movements that do not allow for an opponents different reactions in a street fight

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by 8253
it is true that you play the way you train, but when you train you do a specific movement or set of movements that do not allow for an opponents different reactions in a street fight

The movements that your opponent makes, are what dictates the moves you make. That is true!
However, when your opponent presents a target that is just begging to be punched, each and every one of us is going to punch that target with whatever combination of knuckles we have trained to hit with for however long we have been training.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Do you get the spoon to your mouth every time you eat a bowl of cereal? That is called neuro-muscular memory. Of course you wouldn't pay attention in a fight. The attention is payed in training. You either train to hit with the first two, last three, whole fist, or you don't train at all and just hope for the best. I train to hit with my first two knuckle as a unit. My grandfather taught me that when I was in the fifth grade. Do you honestly believe that at the age of 34 I'm going to accidently start punching with different parts of my fist ,because I won't be have time to think about it when hard pressed? I truly don't know any different; however, I can misjudge and injure my hand, but the decison about how I do it was made a long time ago.

It's very easy to misjudge and break your hand on your opponents head. Especially when you have a moving and struggling target. I have had two boxer breaks (one in each hand) that attest to this. Both times I broke my hands, the fight ended and I couldn't continue. Of course, this was competition, but still, I believe that punching to the head is VERY bad in a self defense situation. If you've got brass kohones the size of the angry laser monkey's go ahead and try! (that is a joke black bear) :asian:

My point is that you don't want to do anything in a self defense situation that might give your opponent the advantage. Besides, how many people can hit a heavy bag with a fist as hard as they can with a palm strike? Give it a try...

 

[someguy]

how many people can hit a heavy bag with a fist as hard as they can with a palm strike?

I do a fair amount of the time.

 

[Black Bear]

I routinely hit the heavy bag harder with my fist than I do with my palm, but I might not if it had bony face-like protrusions all over. Not without wraps. Anyway, Touch'O'Death has a point. On the other hand, upnorthkyosa is correct about fluky stuff happening in combat. I've heard a lot of debate about punching in a streetfight, but when it comes to defending myself in an assault, I don't think I'd punch the guy in the head, anyway.

 

[Makalakumu]

When you guys do a long and hard heavy bag workout, do any of you wrap your fists and wrists?

 

[moving target]

Originally posted by Black Bear
I never said I never heard of folks breaking their index/middle metacarpals. I said it doesn't happen very much. Don't put words in the Angry Laser Monkey's mouth or he will bite your friggin' hand off. Yeah.

Your punch slows at the end yes, because of proprioceptors and yes you can train this out (even punching exclusively into bags as opposed to dead air will help) but remember, you are putting stress on your elbow joint, and besides you do want to pull it back quick. So I don't know if you want to really go there. In any event, I misunderstood the post I was originally responding to, so n/m.

Sorry didn't notice that "very much" at the end of the sentence.

But

1: I have a tranquilizer gun.

2: why wouldn't the monkey burn my hand off?

Ok seriously, let me rephrase what I said from "just because you don't hear about people breaking their index and middle knuckle doesn't mean it doesn't happen." to, Just because you are aware of a given number of people breaking their knuckle(s) while punching with either the first 2 or last 3 knuckles doesn't mean the stats you are aware of are accurate depictions of reality unless you are referencing an in depth scientific study of the subject.

 

[Shinzu]

i have always trained by using the first two knuckes to punch.

 

[Black Bear]

Just because you are aware of a given number of people breaking their knuckle(s) while punching with either the first 2 or last 3 knuckles doesn't mean the stats you are aware of are accurate depictions of reality unless you are referencing an in depth scientific study of the subject.

Dude, there has been good research on this. I read some figures years ago that clinched it for me. I don't make it my business to remember citations for every little factoid I know, especially since that is not my field. Go to your university and look it up on a Medline database search. The facts speak for themselves. I don't make this stuff up.

 

[moving target]

Well I havn't seen any info concerning this question specificly.

I don't mean to say you are making any of this up. What I mean is with out some other information just cataloging the nuber of diffrent injuries doesn't nessisaraly give the information you need. Realy you would need to know the number of people who threw a 3 knuckle punch to the head vs the number of people who threw a 2 knuckle punch to the head as well as the nuber of injuries in a given time frame, and even than there could be skill discrepencies due to diffrent methods of training.

 

[Black Bear]

Well I havn't seen any info concerning this question specificly.

I don't mean to say you are making any of this up. What I mean is with out some other information just cataloging the nuber of diffrent injuries doesn't nessisaraly give the information you need. Realy you would need to know the number of people who threw a 3 knuckle punch to the head vs the number of people who threw a 2 knuckle punch to the head as well as the nuber of injuries in a given time frame, and even than there could be skill discrepencies due to diffrent methods of training.

You seem to assume that these kinds of comparisons are not being done. It is a simple matter to determine, using self-report data, what proportions of people practice one way or another. If you want to find out, it's a simple matter to pick out the proper search terms, track down the articles, and judge for yourself. Or I'm sure if you asked enough physios or medical doctors someone would come up with some primary research you can read.

 

[KennethKu]

how many people can hit a heavy bag with a fist as hard as they can with a palm strike? Give it a try...

Many. Including yours truly. There is nothing to it. It's all in the conditioning.

 

[Black Bear]

Many. Including yours truly. There is nothing to it. It's all in the conditioning.

Yup.

Now, a WALL, on the other hand...

My old kung fu teacher years ago would strike a wall with a heel of palm or with the back-of wrist strike... gosh, what animal system uses those two, was it crane? Mantis? ...to make the point that these have an advantage over a fist.