Knife work from a modernist approach

[angelariz]

I started JKD concepts FMA a long time ago. I trained in the basic sets of sinawali and a million combinations of drills. A dozen plus disarms and lots of pie in the sky drills.

I love the good it brought.
Movement, grip work, and broken rhythm were top of the list.


However, after nearly 30 years of life and sparring with grapplers and slowing down with age, I have to admit, that traditional training with endless drills and disarms are NOT going to get people ready for the sewing machine attack, grappling with weapons involved, and mass attack with different length weapons.

So, my .02 on trad FMA training is that is great for the first foundation. But then, one must get into more combative based weapons work.

I believe
Sifu Paul Vunak
Hock Hocheim
And
Pat O'mally have some of the best combative work that seems to be geared toward better outcomes if forced to deal with violence.

No dig at anyone, I just figured it may bring about a conversation to share other regional combative instructors with more modern approaches to edged weapon combative arts.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I started JKD concepts FMA a long time ago. I trained in the basic sets of sinawali and a million combinations of drills. A dozen plus disarms and lots of pie in the sky drills.

I love the good it brought.
Movement, grip work, and broken rhythm were top of the list.


However, after nearly 30 years of life and sparring with grapplers and slowing down with age, I have to admit, that traditional training with endless drills and disarms are NOT going to get people ready for the sewing machine attack, grappling with weapons involved, and mass attack with different length weapons.

So, my .02 on trad FMA training is that is great for the first foundation. But then, one must get into more combative based weapons work.

I believe
Sifu Paul Vunak
Hock Hocheim
And
Pat O'mally have some of the best combative work that seems to be geared toward better outcomes if forced to deal with violence.

No dig at anyone, I just figured it may bring about a conversation to share other regional combative instructors with more modern approaches to edged weapon combative arts.

It all comes down to how much you spar. Are you trying to learn how to fight with a knife or defend against it? IF you are getting older and don't want to do the grappling, try some traditional (not olympic) fencing, there are styles that focus on daggers specifically. Kali is the only living style I know of though with continuity to modern day.

 

[angelariz]

It all comes down to how much you spar. Are you trying to learn how to fight with a knife or defend against it? IF you are getting older and don't want to do the grappling, try some traditional (not olympic) fencing, there are styles that focus on daggers specifically. Kali is the only living style I know of though with continuity to modern day.

I have to work all of those things. They are all part of my certification with PFS.
However I do know that i am slowing down. The once agile kid (me) is now called Old man by my kids.

 

[lklawson]

Fighting is fighting. The fundamentals of fighting with a weapon are pretty similar. You just have to make variances for length, weight, weapon shape, armor, etc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Graywalker]

If you engage in a knife fight, it doesn't matter what art you train in, you will get cut.

 

[lklawson]

If you engage in a knife fight, it doesn't matter what art you train in, you will get cut.

Except when you don't.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you engage in a knife fight, it doesn't matter what art you train in, you will get cut.

Are you sure about that?
I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured in one of the three conflicts.

 

[Graywalker]

Are you sure about that?
I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured in one of the three conflicts.

I will rephrase that.."you will most likely get cut" ....but I am curious as to what weapon you had?

 

[Graywalker]

Except when you don't.

Doesn't make sense.

 

[punisher73]

Doesn't make sense.

You made a definitive statement that you will get cut in a knife fight. He pointed out that you might be in a situation and not get cut.

 

[Graywalker]

You made a definitive statement that you will get cut in a knife fight. He pointed out that you might be in a situation and not get cut.

Meh semantics, not much of a fan of that type of conversation.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I will rephrase that.."you will most likely get cut" ....but I am curious as to what weapon you had?

Except in 66.6% of the attacks, I did not, in fact, get cut. I had no weapon in any of the attacks. In the first, I was 17 years old and being mugged. In the other two, I was in the ER, where using a weapon would result in more than a couple meetings.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There are unskilled and skilled knife attackers. Against the unskilled, a well trained karate or other TMA guy (with weapons defense practice) can rely on his standard techniques and have a good shot coming out of it without serious injury.

Against the skilled knife attacker, TMA techniques are not realistic to deal with the threat. Knife defense becomes an entirely new game requiring a new skill set. Emphasis must be placed on constant checking, continuous control of the knife arm, and positioning one's body and arms to minimize the cuts likely to be suffered. Speed and aggression are needed to stay proactive and ahead of the action. This is true whether the defender is armed or not.

The poster implied his FMA training/drills was not sufficient to deal with a good knife attacker. I think most all the tools needed can be found there (perhaps elsewhere as well), given the proper instructor. As in all MA, the art supplies the tools, the teacher shows how and when to use them, the student practices - tests for effective application - and practices some more.

Last comment: Knife fights are life or death. One's head must be in the game and be willing to accept the risk of kill or be killed. Not all can do that, perhaps very few - I don't know if it's even predictable. Engagement is definitely a last resort.

 

[Graywalker]

Hmm...he must have had a better weapon.

 

[lklawson]

Doesn't make sense.

Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.

What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.

Stating as a fact, the way you did, is misleading at best and simply wrong, at worst

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Dirty Dog]

Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.

What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.

Stating as a fact, the way you did, is misleading at best and simply wrong, at worst

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

This.
You might get cut, but there are no reliable statistics to determine, with any degree of accuracy, exactly how likely it is. And never will be. Because there are far too many variables.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.

What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.

Stating as a fact, the way you did, is misleading at best and simply wrong, at worst

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

I understand the need for accepting the possibility of getting cut when confronting a knife. The question is how much possibility of that is there? You state it is fairly low. I tend to think the opposite, but then, I don't have the statistics or practical experience in a real knife fight, so I'll approach this with an open mind.

The answer, no doubt, is situation dependent. Please consider the following situations as to risk of the defender getting cut.

Are we talking one or both untrained or trained? Do both or just the attacker have a knife? Is the attacker actually attacking with the knife, or just threatening with it during a robbery? Other variables? If one is in a knife fight and no one gets cut, what the heck happens??? or does just the attacker get cut?

Knowing the answers to these questions should allow us to better evaluate risk, the meaning of the statistics you refer to, and better understand your position as well. I would like to face a high risk situation with as much understanding as possible, so have a sincere interest in regards to these various scenarios and why you think the risk factor is low. In the meantime, I'm going to think it's as dangerous as hell.

 

[Graywalker]

Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.

What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.

Stating as a fact, the way you did, is misleading at best and simply wrong, at worst

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

Oh for the love of god, it is simply an expression, to show the dangers of engaging in a knife fight. It wasn't (and I sincerely hope that it was obvious, and you are simply being arrogant) meant to be a statistic probability...you know, kind of like the expression, it's a shot in the dark.

But, let's see your links to the statistics, that you stated concerning, how most people who use blades in a fight, do not get cut.

Edit* Nevermind, I do not have the desire, to run down a martial talk word salad rabbit hole today...

I concede.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Lots of real weapons used against me, from vehicles, yes moving vehicles trying to run me down , to clubs, gold clubs, bats, cattle electrical tazers, and knives and guns.

One firearm shot at me from moving vehicle. Person locked arm at last second and sent the bullet low between my legs.
Other firearm events, usually just pointed or brandished.

Knives, I have ben cut twice. first was in a group and I did not see the weapon and it cut my arm barely. Second was a stab punch to my leg and I was moving through 10k people trying to find the *insert favorite swear here* who pouched my leg , asked my my leg was wet.
I was bleeding.

All the other times if empty handed, I ether took the blade from them or was able to dance and or strike them into submission.
I have a knife in my pocket many times. Just no time to get it out and deploy it as I was too busy trying to stop the bad guy from putting holes into me.

I have a lanyard and keys and swung and hit a hand for one disarm and another time hit the person in the face and they left.
Other times we danced. One time I was able to wrap my arm in a jean jacket as I backed away and did not have anything in my pocket.
Lots and lots of other times as well.

Maybe I am lucky. Yet my number is much lower than 33% mentioned above, for that data point.

 

[lklawson]

I understand the need for accepting the possibility of getting cut when confronting a knife. The question is how much possibility of that is there? You state it is fairly low. I tend to think the opposite, but then, I don't have the statistics or practical experience in a real knife fight, so I'll approach this with an open mind.

The answer, no doubt, is situation dependent. Please consider the following situations as to risk of the defender getting cut.

Are we talking one or both untrained or trained? Do both or just the attacker have a knife? Is the attacker actually attacking with the knife, or just threatening with it during a robbery? Other variables? If one is in a knife fight and no one gets cut, what the heck happens??? or does just the attacker get cut?

Knowing the answers to these questions should allow us to better evaluate risk, the meaning of the statistics you refer to, and better understand your position as well. I would like to face a high risk situation with as much understanding as possible, so have a sincere interest in regards to these various scenarios and why you think the risk factor is low. In the meantime, I'm going to think it's as dangerous as hell.

I wish, but it's far more complex than that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk