Knife work from a modernist approach

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think the better statement would probably be "It doesn't matter what art you train in, be prepared to get cut if you engage in a knife fight".

 

[angelariz]

Doesn't make sense.

Makes perfect sense.
You dont always get cut.
Sometimes luck or favor or skill has a say.

 

[angelariz]

There are unskilled and skilled knife attackers. Against the unskilled, a well trained karate or other TMA guy (with weapons defense practice) can rely on his standard techniques and have a good shot coming out of it without serious injury.

Against the skilled knife attacker, TMA techniques are not realistic to deal with the threat. Knife defense becomes an entirely new game requiring a new skill set. Emphasis must be placed on constant checking, continuous control of the knife arm, and positioning one's body and arms to minimize the cuts likely to be suffered. Speed and aggression are needed to stay proactive and ahead of the action. This is true whether the defender is armed or not.

The poster implied his FMA training/drills was not sufficient to deal with a good knife attacker. I think most all the tools needed can be found there (perhaps elsewhere as well), given the proper instructor. As in all MA, the art supplies the tools, the teacher shows how and when to use them, the student practices - tests for effective application - and practices some more.

Last comment: Knife fights are life or death. One's head must be in the game and be willing to accept the risk of kill or be killed. Not all can do that, perhaps very few - I don't know if it's even predictable. Engagement is definitely a last resort.

No I didn't say that at all. I said FMA is a good base but no one art has all the answers.

One must grapple, one must have different skill sets.

 

[angelariz]

Fighting is fighting. The fundamentals of fighting with a weapon are pretty similar. You just have to make variances for length, weight, weapon shape, armor, etc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Fighting is fighting...not so much.
Today many people still think fighting is a 2 people in a duel.

 

[Graywalker]

I am realizing, with this crowd, I need to explain in detail what I am stating.

My point was simple..."It does not matter, which art you train in, (pay attention to the Art, as that was the subject of my statement) you will have a probability of getting cut." ... It was my intention to show that the art, is not a guarantee that you won't be cut.

There is an old exercise that we did in the 80's in my Karate System. Everyone would grab a sharpie and try to stab and defend using the sharpie as a knife. It gave us a more realistic idea of what happens when one engages in a knife fight and we would attack as with intent to cause damage, no set or prearranged drills, simply all out. At the end of the sparring session, we would count the number of ink stains on our gi's and body....it was humbling.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I am realizing, with this crowd, I need to explain in detail what I am stating.

My point was simple..."It does not matter, which art you train in, (pay attention to the Art, as that was the subject of my statement) you will have a probability of getting cut." ... It was my intention to show that the art, is not a guarantee that you won't be cut.

There is an old exercise that we did in the 80's in my Karate System. Everyone would grab a sharpie and try to stab and defend using the sharpie as a knife. It gave us a more realistic idea of what happens when one engages in a knife fight and we would attack as with intent to cause damage, no set or prearranged drills, simply all out. At the end of the sparring session, we would count the number of ink stains on our gi's and body....it was humbling.

This is one of my favorite methods, grab some water soluble red markers, have the students wear a white undershirt and tell them to go to town on each other for thirty seconds. Also good for teaching disarms, you learn to commit at the right speed when you take three or four strikes to the hand and arm for hesitating.

 

[Graywalker]

This is one of my favorite methods, grab some water soluble red markers, have the students wear a white undershirt and tell them to go to town on each other for thirty seconds. Also good for teaching disarms, you learn to commit at the right speed when you take three or four strikes to the hand and arm for hesitating.

Yes, the all out was what we did first and then it was done in drills. It amazed me how a slight shift, would change the dynamics.

I have introduced this type of training, into several different systems and schools during my travels. A lot of the instructors were humble and adjusted their method of instruction.

Even with this training, I was still stabbed, but then again, it was against multiple attackers and I count it as a win, simply because I walked away with my life.

 

[lklawson]

Fighting is fighting...not so much.

Sure it is. The basic fundamentals and mechanics, balance, timing, distance, engagement, avoidance, are all still the same. Fighting is fighting.

Today many people still think fighting is a 2 people in a duel.

That's one variation. And "dueling" still happens a lot more than many people think.

I hear a lot of folks say, "there's no rules in a 'real' fight." But it turns out that often times there are. Sometimes the "rules" seem brutal or unfair by many personal standards but there really are "rules" a lot of the time.

As just one example, Greg Ellifritz wrote a widely distributed article titled "The Educational Beatdown" which describes one type of "real street fight' that does have "rules."

Greg Ellifritz at DuckDuckGo"The+Educational+Beatdown"

And do you really think there aren't any duels any more? Of course there are. They're dirt common. Two people who engage in mutual combat happens all the time, and often enough, they still agree to use more-or-less equal weapons.

It doesn't take much searching to find tons of videos of mutual combat, unarmed or with many varieties of weapons.

Are all fights mutual combat or duels? Of course not. But then again, they never were.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanshi]

Weapons and fighting training definitely help. Facing a knife wielder while unarmed: super high risk of injury. Facing a knife wielder with your own knife: merely high risk. Facing a knife wielder with you armed with a bigger knife, pole or stick: moderate, but very real, risk. In any knife situation the best move is, out of there. If the guy has a knife but is terribly bad with it and you have a knife: chance of injury is fairly low but controlled by chaos theory (too many variables render it essentially out of your control. Best defense, if you can't leave quickly, is any weapon that will create a distance that the opponent has to cross to hurt you.

 

[angelariz]

Weapons and fighting training definitely help. Facing a knife wielder while unarmed: super high risk of injury. Facing a knife wielder with your own knife: merely high risk. Facing a knife wielder with you armed with a bigger knife, pole or stick: moderate, but very real, risk. In any knife situation the best move is, out of there. If the guy has a knife but is terribly bad with it and you have a knife: chance of injury is fairly low but controlled by chaos theory (too many variables render it essentially out of your control. Best defense, if you can't leave quickly, is any weapon that will create a distance that the opponent has to cross to hurt you.

Yep.
But most stabbings are full on sewing machine. That is not something I like to think about but it is how it is. People get up close and personal if you are getting stuck. I'm not going to talk about scenarios or tactics because that is all irrelevant to this conversation.
You can train for duels. That is a fine martial art unto itself.
But i am more concerned with the jail house grab you and hit with the sewing machine. Every system has its way. That is something I talk about train for more than these duels of mutual combat.

 

[angelariz]

I think the better statement would probably be "It doesn't matter what art you train in, be prepared to get cut if you engage in a knife fight".

Getting cut is not even a concern to be honest. It is more the worry of nerve damage. We know we will be getting cut.--
Sparring a lot helps but the likelihood of getting poked or slashed is really high.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

How does one actually prepare to deafeat the sewing machine attack? it sort of presumes ambush and no weapons out. If someones engaged in that it seems more likely you have been stabbed or cut before you can properly respond.

Some form of force on force training and how its done is key in practising these though.

 

[lklawson]

Yep.
But most stabbings are full on sewing machine.

Most? Or maybe "some."

That is not something I like to think about but it is how it is. People get up close and personal if you are getting stuck.

Except when they don't.

There's plenty of examples of grab and "sewing machine of death.' There are also plenty of examples of not that.

But i am more concerned with the jail house grab you and hit with the sewing machine.

Which absolutely does happen but isn't as universal an attack strategy as some people would have you believe.

Every system has its way. That is something I talk about train for more than these duels of mutual combat.

You have to figure out what is the most likely attack scenario and train for that first. But you cannot stop there. You have to continue and then also train for the second most likely. Then the third, and so on.

And here's the thing, just because X is the most likely today, doesn't mean that it won't be Y tomorrow.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Graywalker]

I think one of the issues, is people who speak and give advice, have never actually been engaged in a knife fight.

I see this a lot in the martial art, people training others for life and death situations, who have never been involved in any situation outside of training. But yet somehow believe that their assumed knowledge, is fact.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I think one of the issues, is people who speak and give advice, have never actually been engaged in a knife fight.

I see this a lot in the martial art, people training others for life and death situations, who have never been involved in any situation outside of training. But yet somehow believe that their assumed knowledge, is fact.

Which is also how you get the cognitive dissonance that TMA don't work and how BJJ is the only effective martial art, etc.

 

[Graywalker]

Which is also how you get the cognitive dissonance that TMA don't work and how BJJ is the only effective martial art, etc.

Yup, I hear it all the time

 

[angelariz]

Most? Or maybe "some."


Except when they don't.

There's plenty of examples of grab and "sewing machine of death.' There are also plenty of examples of not that.

Which absolutely does happen but isn't as universal an attack strategy as some people would have you believe.


You have to figure out what is the most likely attack scenario and train for that first. But you cannot stop there. You have to continue and then also train for the second most likely. Then the third, and so on.

And here's the thing, just because X is the most likely today, doesn't mean that it won't be Y tomorrow.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

How does one actually prepare to deafeat the sewing machine attack? it sort of presumes ambush and no weapons out. If someones engaged in that it seems more likely you have been stabbed or cut before you can properly respond.

Some form of force on force training and how its done is key in practising these though.

You have to work on it.
You have to see what helps.
There are a lot of "techniques " but it comes down to awareness, equipment, and skill sets.

Grappling and Vunak's Asymmetric violence in how we train against the sewing machine work.

 

[angelariz]

There are a lot of responses and that is cool. But I notice on forums people act like there is an us verses them ideology. I do not care one way or another what people train or how your school trains it.
A' salut
But from my years experience, much of the dueling training is strictly for footwork and timing practice. No one believes we are going to get into a fair fight with dueling blades. That is ridiculous. Most assaults with weapons are ambushes. Not a slap in the face with a glove and a guy saying 'En Gaurde



I'm always a student.
Once in a while, a teacher.

 

[lklawson]

But from my years experience, much of the dueling training is strictly for footwork and timing practice. No one believes we are going to get into a fair fight with dueling blades. That is ridiculous.

Except that clearly it still does happen with some degree of frequency. ...as proved above.

Most assaults with weapons are ambushes. Not a slap in the face with a glove and a guy saying 'En Gaurde

Maybe but maybe not. No one seems to have any actual statistics to back up this claim. Do you? I mean, I'm not discounting it. It seems believable, but that doesn't actually count as proof or fact. It's just something that gets repeated a lot. And just because lots of people say something doesn't mean it's true. ...you know, like, "90% of all fights go to the ground." The 90% Myth Deconstructed

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Deleted member 39746]

You have to work on it.
You have to see what helps.
There are a lot of "techniques " but it comes down to awareness, equipment, and skill sets.

Grappling and Vunak's Asymmetric violence in how we train against the sewing machine work.

This seems like its in a similar vein to just "punch them". Which as far as i can ascertain is part of any good weapon defence system, bind the weapon then just punch the **** out of them.

Most of the time it boils down to context and the other person messing up. Like if you watch some shiv works force on force, its throw a distraction in there then secure the weapon and deployed your own. (they work with the context everyone has a pistol and knife) I dont really know what would and wouldnt work as testing and the metrics for testing are as important as the thing itself. Along with cons on the testing form.

Worth noting best ambush defence is seeing it and not walking into it(or counter ambush), so i wish people would acknowledge that and spread that. You cant win from a ambush usually, it just boils down to just hitting until you die or get out of it.