Knife work from a modernist approach

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angelariz

angelariz

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This seems like its in a similar vein to just "punch them". Which as far as i can ascertain is part of any good weapon defence system, bind the weapon then just punch the **** out of them.

Most of the time it boils down to context and the other person messing up. Like if you watch some shiv works force on force, its throw a distraction in there then secure the weapon and deployed your own. (they work with the context everyone has a pistol and knife) I dont really know what would and wouldnt work as testing and the metrics for testing are as important as the thing itself. Along with cons on the testing form.

Worth noting best ambush defence is seeing it and not walking into it(or counter ambush), so i wish people would acknowledge that and spread that. You cant win from a ambush usually, it just boils down to just hitting until you die or get out of it.
I did used to run the street as an undocumented pharmacist, I did club and hospital security, and spent a little time over the years training crowd control scenario drills for years.

Some is skill, some is training. But in the street, awareness and luck go a long way.
 
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angelariz

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Except that clearly it still does happen with some degree of frequency. ...as proved above.


Maybe but maybe not. No one seems to have any actual statistics to back up this claim. Do you? I mean, I'm not discounting it. It seems believable, but that doesn't actually count as proof or fact. It's just something that gets repeated a lot. And just because lots of people say something doesn't mean it's true. ...you know, like, "90% of all fights go to the ground." The 90% Myth Deconstructed

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
In the world I grew up in, my anecdotal evidence is enough for me and mine.
 
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angelariz

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You will find, as time goes on, not a lot of people on forums have a whole lot of real world experience.
From the responses i get, it would seem that a lot of people are buying video downloads and become the wisest and toughest people on the planet.
 

lklawson

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From the responses i get, it would seem that a lot of people are buying video downloads and become the wisest and toughest people on the planet.
I just get tired of people making absolutist claims and then arguing about it. They don't believe anything that disagrees with them so if you can post video of it, then there's irrefutable evidence. For some reason some people will still reject that irrefutable evidence because it disagrees with what they want to believe; such as "you are going to get cut" or "duels never happen." Even when presented with irrefutable evidence that both statements are not the absolutes being claimed, the people making the statements reject the evidence anyway.

Humans are weird creatures. They don't care about evidence, facts, or logic. They just want to believe what they want to believe. Critical Thinking is a lost art. <shrug>
 
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I just get tired of people making absolutist claims and then arguing about it. They don't believe anything that disagrees with them so if you can post video of it, then there's irrefutable evidence. For some reason some people will still reject that irrefutable evidence because it disagrees with what they want to believe; such as "you are going to get cut" or "duels never happen." Even when presented with irrefutable evidence that both statements are not the absolutes being claimed, the people making the statements reject the evidence anyway.

Humans are weird creatures. They don't care about evidence, facts, or logic. They just want to believe what they want to believe. Critical Thinking is a lost art. <shrug>

I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture. It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.

A great but rambly example. If we take the question "should i practise at home". Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc. But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call. (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance. It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there. (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it) In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.


The only thing i can really suggest is, lay out crtieria, look for ones that meet your criteria the best, if none do, learn how to do your crtieria and do it yourself. And hope you have the resources and time to do it.
 

Graywalker

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I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture. It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.

A great but rambly example. If we take the question "should i practise at home". Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc. But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call. (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance. It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there. (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it) In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.


The only thing i can really suggest is, lay out crtieria, look for ones that meet your criteria the best, if none do, learn how to do your crtieria and do it yourself. And hope you have the resources and time to do it.
I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.

People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.
 
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I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.

People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.
My viewpoint on that is, all of this started from somewhere, anyone can start this again. The only issue is, like with other subjects you learn what is known so you dont have to start from scratch and wast time redescovering the known. Thats the entire point of education, pass down what you know so someone else doesnt start from scratch. (your not likely to start from scratch now days though, and i dont think you need to or should but you can. )
 

Martial D

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I started JKD concepts FMA a long time ago. I trained in the basic sets of sinawali and a million combinations of drills. A dozen plus disarms and lots of pie in the sky drills.

I love the good it brought.
Movement, grip work, and broken rhythm were top of the list.


However, after nearly 30 years of life and sparring with grapplers and slowing down with age, I have to admit, that traditional training with endless drills and disarms are NOT going to get people ready for the sewing machine attack, grappling with weapons involved, and mass attack with different length weapons.

So, my .02 on trad FMA training is that is great for the first foundation. But then, one must get into more combative based weapons work.

I believe
Sifu Paul Vunak
Hock Hocheim
And
Pat O'mally have some of the best combative work that seems to be geared toward better outcomes if forced to deal with violence.

No dig at anyone, I just figured it may bring about a conversation to share other regional combative instructors with more modern approaches to edged weapon combative arts.
The only reliable knife defence is a gun licence
 

Martial D

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You might want to let Ohnimus and that Tueller guy know. ;)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
So you think you can draw a knife, run 20 feet and stab someone before they can draw and shoot?

Maybe that was true in 1890 when ohnimus wrote that,when pistols weighed 5 pounds.. but if someone has a gun licence they probably also have enough training to use the thing..and it's likely to be a firearm made in this century.
 

Graywalker

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My viewpoint on that is, all of this started from somewhere, anyone can start this again. The only issue is, like with other subjects you learn what is known so you dont have to start from scratch and wast time redescovering the known. Thats the entire point of education, pass down what you know so someone else doesnt start from scratch. (your not likely to start from scratch now days though, and i dont think you need to or should but you can. )
True, unfortunately education is subjective to those that teach and that is not always a correct teaching.

Personal experience, trial and error, are really the only true educators..imo that is
 

Flying Crane

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I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture. It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.

A great but rambly example. If we take the question "should i practise at home". Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc. But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call. (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance. It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there. (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it) In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.


The only thing i can really suggest is, lay out crtieria, look for ones that meet your criteria the best, if none do, learn how to do your crtieria and do it yourself. And hope you have the resources and time to do it.
Definitely practice outside of class. Even after your very first lesson.
 

Flying Crane

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I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.

People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.
I doubt that is true. Martial systems do not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum. Those who develop a new system always, I suspect, have some form of martial experience upon which they base their new methodology and developments. I would be shocked if there is any example in history of an effective, comprehensive martial system being developed by someone with no prior training and experience.

And yes, people can figure things out for themselves to an extent. But likely it will be sloppy and inefficient. It can be effective to a point, but definitely not optimal.
 

lklawson

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So you think you can draw a knife, run 20 feet and stab someone before they can draw and shoot?

Maybe that was true in 1890 when ohnimus wrote that,when pistols weighed 5 pounds.. but if someone has a gun licence they probably also have enough training to use the thing..and it's likely to be a firearm made in this century.
I take it that you 1) just skimmed the article, and 2) decided to ignore the Tueller reference.
 

Martial D

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I take it that you 1) just skimmed the article, and 2) decided to ignore the Tueller reference.
I see you decided to ignore the entire point of my comment to be contrarian.
Even if it's theoretically possible to rush someone with a weapon that has a range of 20 yards effectively with a weapon that has a range of 2 feet, that doesn't invalidate the FACT your best chance of not getting stabbed in a knife altercation, besides escape, is a firearm. Nor does it invalidate the fact that Martial Arts knife disarms are most likely going to get you stabbed or killed if you are convinced of their effacy by some charlatan looking to sell you some false peace of mind.
 

lklawson

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I see you decided to ignore the entire point of my comment to be contrarian.
Nope. I'm not being contrarian. I'm pointing out that you are apparently unaware of information which is considered fundamental and basic in the firearms-for-defense community, and has been known for well over a century. You are recommending a course of action and don't even know one of the basic tenants of the training. It's akin to recommending karate for fighting but not knowing what a side kick is or telling someone to go learn kendo so they can use "a samurai sword."

Even if it's theoretically possible to rush someone with a weapon that has a range of 20 yards effectively with a weapon that has a range of 2 feet,
Even if it's possible? You're kidding me, right? You are apparently completely unaware of an entire, and very important, body of information and are arguing from a position of ignorance.

that doesn't invalidate the FACT your best chance of not getting stabbed in a knife altercation, besides escape, is a firearm.
Except that it isn't a fact. Heck, I remember when Tueller came out in the mid-80s and some people thought it was new and fresh. I remember when knife guys like Vunak started doing videos about it. Heck, even Mythbusters did a segment on it. The information is positively awash over the internet. Just look and find it.

Nor does it invalidate the fact that Martial Arts knife disarms are most likely going to get you stabbed or killed if you are convinced of their effacy by some charlatan looking to sell you some false peace of mind.
Which has nothing to do with what you were claiming a few posts ago.

The "21 foot rule" is a thing for a reason. Because there's a lot of truth to it. If you know what it is, how to train for it, and the correct applications, there are ways that you can improve your odds, but the fact is, if someone is in 20-25 feet from you with a knife and is intent on stabbing you, then you have a big problem and it's one that merely having a gun isn't going to solve for you.

Look, I think that guns are the premier personal defense tool. They are the most effective and efficient, require the least physicality to use, and require the least training for correct and effective use. I am a Certified handgun and rifle instructor and Certified to Expert in bowie knife. I'm not talking out of my hind-end here. But guns are also not a magic talisman and thinking that one is going to keep you from getting stabbed by someone who is intent on putting the pointy end in your squishy bits when they're inside of around 25' is, frankly, ignorant.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Go get some training from a local firearms instructor. Or at the very least do some research online on how to solve the Tueller Drill. There's plenty of videos and stuff.
 

Martial D

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Nope. I'm not being contrarian. I'm pointing out that you are apparently unaware of information which is considered fundamental and basic in the firearms-for-defense community, and has been known for well over a century. You are recommending a course of action and don't even know one of the basic tenants of the training. It's akin to recommending karate for fighting but not knowing what a side kick is or telling someone to go learn kendo so they can use "a samurai sword."


Even if it's possible? You're kidding me, right? You are apparently completely unaware of an entire, and very important, body of information and are arguing from a position of ignorance.


Except that it isn't a fact. Heck, I remember when Tueller came out in the mid-80s and some people thought it was new and fresh. I remember when knife guys like Vunak started doing videos about it. Heck, even Mythbusters did a segment on it. The information is positively awash over the internet. Just look and find it.


Which has nothing to do with what you were claiming a few posts ago.

The "21 foot rule" is a thing for a reason. Because there's a lot of truth to it. If you know what it is, how to train for it, and the correct applications, there are ways that you can improve your odds, but the fact is, if someone is in 20-25 feet from you with a knife and is intent on stabbing you, then you have a big problem and it's one that merely having a gun isn't going to solve for you.

Look, I think that guns are the premier personal defense tool. They are the most effective and efficient, require the least physicality to use, and require the least training for correct and effective use. I am a Certified handgun and rifle instructor and Certified to Expert in bowie knife. I'm not talking out of my hind-end here. But guns are also not a magic talisman and thinking that one is going to keep you from getting stabbed by someone who is intent on putting the pointy end in your squishy bits when they're inside of around 25' is, frankly, ignorant.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Go get some training from a local firearms instructor. Or at the very least do some research online on how to solve the Tueller Drill. There's plenty of videos and stuff.
Maybe you should read what I actually said rather than trying to win a conversation like it was a competition. I said a firearm is your best chance besides escape of not getting stabbed. I didn't say it's a magic pill. Read before you respond.
 
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