Knife from WW3 Combative's

[Juany118]

I always thought the point(pun intended) of ice pick grip was either for use as an overhead strike or stabbing like a sewing machine. Either way, the knife leads. From what I could see in the video(only watched part of the first), he is punching with a vertical fist with a blade protruding from the bottom of the fist.

Depends. You can hold in the icepick grip if you have a straight (preferably single edged) blade that you also want to use for control, as an example trapping a wrist between your forearm and the back edge of the blade. If you have a karambit, which traditionally has an edge on both sides that kind of control can be pretty devastating. Also with a karambit a thrust can very much look like a punch due to the curvature of the blade as well.

 

[frank raud]

Depends. You can hold in the icepick grip if you have a straight (preferably single edged) blade that you also want to use for control, as an example trapping a wrist between your forearm and the back edge of the blade. If you have a karambit, which traditionally has an edge on both sides that kind of control can be pretty devastating. Also with a karambit a thrust can very much look like a punch due to the curvature of the blade as well.

When I do pikal(reverse grip), I learned it edge in. This makes the hooking/trapping devastating as you say. Because of the hooked blade on a karambit, a punch is a very different thing than the same punch with a straight blade. It is part of what a karambit is designed to do, it is not what a regular knife is used for.

 

[Juany118]

When I do pikal(reverse grip), I learned it edge in. This makes the hooking/trapping devastating as you say. Because of the hooked blade on a karambit, a punch is a very different thing than the same punch with a straight blade. It is part of what a karambit is designed to do, it is not what a regular knife is used for.

Oh in Kali we learn edge out for a couple reasons.

1. If you use it to attack an offending arm you can do it, in a punching fashion for a deeper cut.
3. If you use it to block, the chances of the blade coming back to haunt you are a lot lower.

To quote one knife maker I am familiar with the difference between the two pikal grips...

"Having the cutting edge facing inward puts the movement of the knife blade toward the knife user. Cutting toward oneself with a 7" long bladed knife is never a good idea. The motion of thrusting is downward and inward, pulling the enemy closer into the knife user's body. If the knife user is trapped or a strike lands on the knife, it can be injurious to the knife owner."

I would also completely disagree with the last part. A traditional knife doesn't have the ergonomics that make a knife innately ill suited for either grip. The trick is having the right grip for the techniques you plan on using. In terms of the karambit I am actually on the same page as Doug Marcaida as well. It's not the blade shape that makes the karambit so dang dangerous, it's the ring. For the ring to be properly used, even on the Fox DART (which I love) that Marcaida specifically designed to have a single edged straight blade, you have to hold the weapon in a reverse grip.

You do loose some range and some angles of attack become less effective, to the point of arguably being ineffective, (I primarily practice the 'normal' grip. I said "normal" because I use three different variations depending on what I am doing, primarily saber but also sometimes "hammer" and what some call the "filipino" grip, depending on the type of knife) but there are some advantages that, depending on the circumstances, make the grip more preferable.
1. it makes the "feel the knife before you see it" concept easier as the blade can be concealed behind the forearm.
2. you have the advantage of the control/trapping
3. the "effective" angles of attack are, imo, more powerful as your hand and arm completely support the weapon as your fist is in the optimal biomechanical position for punching due to the alignment. A hammer fist becomes a thrust, a cross or upper cut a slash etc.
4. The cutting surfaces are always towards your opponent, even if guarding with the forearm.
5. The natural stance with this is with the arms drawn more in, so it is more "defensive" in that the arm is not as extended which can lead it to being more easily trapped/injured. Because of this I will actually, when doing "knife" v "stick" sparring keep the trainer in the reverse grip. He already has a reach advantage that a couple extra inches won't help over come and a saber grip (at least imo) invites the guy to wack at my arm to try and disarm/break it.

These "effective" angles though are, as I said more limited, but it still has it's place. So long as you are properly trained in it's use it is viable. I know some custom knife makers who started making knives for their clients in the Special Operations that were asked specifically to address the reverse, blade out, grip in the knives they ordered, since now ergonomic grips are far more common.

 

[Charlemagne]

In the Pekiti Tirsia Kali Global Organization, we do blade edge in if we are doing Pikal with a single edge knife. Ideally, one would have a double edged knife, but that is actually not legal in many states, even Texas unfortunately.

Slashes with the knife are good, but with the short weapon, they are not going to be deep enough many times to actually end the fight. There are all sorts of pictures out there of people who have been slashed to heck and ended up surviving. Of course if one slashes the right place, they can bleed out, but those places are limited and bleeding out takes time also. Therefore, we think of the knife as a thrusting weapon primarily, as the thrust is a fight-ender if put int he right place. That's not to say that we don't slash at all, because we do, particularly if we have the opportunity to take the hand so that the other guy might drop his weapon, or when we are transition from one target to another. But I think it is safe to say that, at least in my PTK organization, we focus more on the thrust for the purpose of ending the fight.

The Karambit is cool, but I have serious concerns about the perception of it as a weapon should would be carrying it and, God forbid, be forced to used it for the purposes of self-protection. My Spyderco folder is a pretty normal knife as far as EDC blades go. A Karambit is probably going to be looked at far differently by most LEO's and almost certainly by prosecutors. That being said, it is fun to train.

 

[frank raud]

Oh in Kali we learn edge out for a couple reasons.

1. If you use it to attack an offending arm you can do it, in a punching fashion for a deeper cut.
3. If you use it to block, the chances of the blade coming back to haunt you are a lot lower.

To quote one knife maker I am familiar with the difference between the two pikal grips...

"Having the cutting edge facing inward puts the movement of the knife blade toward the knife user. Cutting toward oneself with a 7" long bladed knife is never a good idea. The motion of thrusting is downward and inward, pulling the enemy closer into the knife user's body. If the knife user is trapped or a strike lands on the knife, it can be injurious to the knife owner."

I would also completely disagree with the last part. A traditional knife doesn't have the ergonomics that make a knife innately ill suited for either grip. The trick is having the right grip for the techniques you plan on using. In terms of the karambit I am actually on the same page as Doug Marcaida as well. It's not the blade shape that makes the karambit so dang dangerous, it's the ring. For the ring to be properly used, even on the Fox DART (which I love) that Marcaida specifically designed to have a single edged straight blade, you have to hold the weapon in a reverse grip.

You do loose some range and some angles of attack become less effective, to the point of arguably being ineffective, (I primarily practice the 'normal' grip. I said "normal" because I use three different variations depending on what I am doing, primarily saber but also sometimes "hammer" and what some call the "filipino" grip, depending on the type of knife) but there are some advantages that, depending on the circumstances, make the grip more preferable.
1. it makes the "feel the knife before you see it" concept easier as the blade can be concealed behind the forearm.
2. you have the advantage of the control/trapping
3. the "effective" angles of attack are, imo, more powerful as your hand and arm completely support the weapon as your fist is in the optimal biomechanical position for punching due to the alignment. A hammer fist becomes a thrust, a cross or upper cut a slash etc.
4. The cutting surfaces are always towards your opponent, even if guarding with the forearm.
5. The natural stance with this is with the arms drawn more in, so it is more "defensive" in that the arm is not as extended which can lead it to being more easily trapped/injured. Because of this I will actually, when doing "knife" v "stick" sparring keep the trainer in the reverse grip. He already has a reach advantage that a couple extra inches won't help over come and a saber grip (at least imo) invites the guy to wack at my arm to try and disarm/break it.

These "effective" angles though are, as I said more limited, but it still has it's place. So long as you are properly trained in it's use it is viable. I know some custom knife makers who started making knives for their clients in the Special Operations that were asked specifically to address the reverse, blade out, grip in the knives they ordered, since now ergonomic grips are far more common.

Hmmm, different weapons dictate different tactics. If the ring is what makes the karambit so effective, you could achieve the same slashing/ripping damage with a bird and trout knife. A hawkbill carpet knife could substitute as a karambit more effectively, and has no ring.
I learned pikal grip(edge in) from a direct student of Doug Marcaida and a noted knife designer, Craig Douglas aka SouthNarc. It is a standard grip taught in Pekiti Tirsia. It is advocated for smaller blades.

 

[Juany118]

In the Pekiti Tirsia Kali Global Organization, we do blade edge in if we are doing Pikal with a single edge knife. Ideally, one would have a double edged knife, but that is actually not legal in many states, even Texas unfortunately.

Slashes with the knife are good, but with the short weapon, they are not going to be deep enough many times to actually end the fight. There are all sorts of pictures out there of people who have been slashed to heck and ended up surviving. Of course if one slashes the right place, they can bleed out, but those places are limited and bleeding out takes time also. Therefore, we think of the knife as a thrusting weapon primarily, as the thrust is a fight-ender if put int he right place. That's not to say that we don't slash at all, because we do, particularly if we have the opportunity to take the hand so that the other guy might drop his weapon, or when we are transition from one target to another. But I think it is safe to say that, at least in my PTK organization, we focus more on the thrust for the purpose of ending the fight.

The Karambit is cool, but I have serious concerns about the perception of it as a weapon should would be carrying it and, God forbid, be forced to used it for the purposes of self-protection. My Spyderco folder is a pretty normal knife as far as EDC blades go. A Karambit is probably going to be looked at far differently by most LEO's and almost certainly by prosecutors. That being said, it is fun to train.

I do Lacoste-Inosanto Kali and my Guro/Sifu is also a private contractor instructor in combatives so that may explain the "blade out" issue?

Agreed on the double edge/legal issue and on the last point. I was actually talking with my Guro the other day about the Karambit. I was saying legally (in our State) I think you would be okay with a single edged karambit like the Fox or Spiderco, they aren't that different than some hunting "gutting" knives, so as a folder you could justify it as a "tool" vs a "Prohibited Offensive Weapon". However a double edged traditional karambit would be a POW in our State so avoid it. Even then, if you use that sort of folder as an EDC, have your explanation prepared because it will "look bad" even if single edged.

 

[Juany118]

Hmmm, different weapons dictate different tactics. If the ring is what makes the karambit so effective, you could achieve the same slashing/ripping damage with a bird and trout knife.
I learned pikal grip(edge in) from a direct student of Doug Marcaida and a noted knife designer, Craig Douglas aka SouthNarc. It is a standard grip taught in Pekiti Tirsia. It is advocated for smaller blades.

My comment regarding Doug was simply his comment on the ring and it's importance. My Kali training is Lacoste-Inosanto and we all know I think (as we study FMA) how varied FMA really is and L-IK being a hybrid only exacerbates the difference I am sure.

 

[Charlemagne]

I do Lacoste-Inosanto Kali and my Guro/Sifu is also a private contractor instructor in combatives so that may explain the "blade out" issue?

Very possibly. When I did Lacoste-Inosanto, we did blade out much of the time in pikal as well. The same was true when I trained Modern Arnis and also Pekiti Tirsia in a different organization.

Agreed on the double edge/legal issue and on the last point. I was actually talking with my Guro the other day about the Karambit. I was saying legally (in our State) I think you would be okay with a single edged karambit like the Fox or Spiderco, they aren't that different than some hunting "gutting" knives, so as a folder you could justify it as a "tool" vs a "Prohibited Offensive Weapon". However a double edged traditional karambit would be a POW in our State so avoid it.

Legally, I think you are correct on the single edged karambit, but my concern is about perception. There are indeed some "gutting knives" that have a curved blade, but I am not seeing LEO's and/or Prosecutors buying that argument. I believe you are creating the impression of looking for trouble if you carry one.

The fact that we have chosen to train in a blade heavy martial arts system is enough to make people look twice at you if something happens. Thankfully, there are multiple LEO's in Texas who train in PTK, which will help (hopefully) in that perception.

If I had my way, I would be carrying an Applegate-Fairbairn of some kind. Unfortunately, that is not an option for me.

 

[Juany118]

Legally, I think you are correct on the single edged karambit, but my concern is about perception. There are indeed some "gutting knives" that have a curved blade, but I am not seeing LEO's and/or Prosecutors buying that argument. I believe you are creating the impression of looking for trouble if you carry one.

I would agree, hence why I said make sure you have the canned response regarding the purpose of the knife. If you say simply "for defense" that then adds a whole different layer to the headache. In the long run I think you would be good but the drama before then is to be avoided if possible and that difference can often be simple articulation.

The fact that we have chosen to train in a blade heavy martial arts system is enough to make people look twice at you if something happens.

again agreed, my brother in law is a TKD instructor and when we talk about our respective arts he gets my Wing Chun but the Kali? He says "it makes sense for you as a cop. You learn sticks and learning how to use blades means you are better capable to defend against them, but 'normal' people?!?!?"

As for other LEOs, in my area those few that train on their own tend to have been dedicated to BJJ. Most, sadly, don't train on their own dime.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, I'm away for a little bit, and this keeps going?

Okay… I'm a little late to the party, but what the hell, let's look at what we have here… er… settle in, guys… this won't be short…

The video is just snippets of clips. They are static strikes that explain what is happening in the body to deliver the greatest amount of power. Joint focus, structure, body torque, wave form and more. To show what is happening I had to over exagerate the movements. The system contains 162 clips. The video is just a taste of what is in it. Taken out of context I can see that it won't make sense.

"Static strikes"? As in, not showing actual body movement? Yeah, I can see that…

The issue was not the you were overexageratin movements, it's that the movements were beginner-level to maybe early intermediate, and simply poor. And they were not taken out of context… but we'll get to that.

People might think that putting 3 systems together is a bad idea, yet what I did was take the Self Defense Training System and added principles from Wing Chun and Open Circle Fighting Method. All 3 are principle based systems. Added principles of movement can super power the techniques that are already proven to work. Making them even more effective. If you were to purchase the videos, it would not replace what you know. It would add to what you know. It would add to your understanding of how your body moves and delivers power.

Not if the principles are contradictory. And, frankly, if a system is already principle based, adding other principles to it (from external sources) is simply overly complicating, muddying up, and missing the point of the actual system you think you're improving. I mean… if one system has a series of principles for power generation, adding alternate principles for power generation from other systems is completely pointless… you may buy 10 cars, but you can only drive one at a time.

Oh, but for the record, I have seen nothing at all in anything from you that makes me think you're in any position to add to anything I know…

Everything you said comes from not actually understanding what I am teaching.

Ha!

The videos give nothing away.

The videos give plenty away, trust me…

You do not know why I did what I did in the videos and how I add to things later or how what was taught in previous videos makes things near the end make sense. You can't make a decision on an entire system based on snippets of clips that have deeper explanation.

No, but I can see glaring issues in body mechanics, I can read marketing double talk (with no real content or genuine information and innovation), and I can recognise poorly understood appreciations of the topics you're attempting to address.

Then you try to make fun of my training. You have no idea how much time I have spent on my training or what my over all level of skill and understanding is. You're just bashing me and thinking you know me.[/QUOTE]

You may be surprised at just how much can be told from your clips, mate…

Also just because you have no idea what Ancient Swiss Medical Qigong is, you think you can make fun of me for it. If you knew what it was you would understand.

I wasn't making fun of you, I was pointing out yet another giant red flag of yet another area you claimed to have taken your ideas from… oh, and any further information on that "ninjitsu mind techniques" thing you have mentioned….?

The reason I took the videos down is because they are shown out of context and I was being overwhelmed by your attacks. Have you ever been a room where multiple people are making fun of you? Hard to come back with anything. In a multiple attacker situation, best thing to do is get out of there.

They're not shown out of context, son. And, if they were, they were your clips, you posted them, and you gave them no further context to explain them… so… that'd be on you.

Since the videos are taken out of context, none of you can see the lessons before that add to the understanding in these videos.

Okay, let's deal with this here.

They are not out of context. The context of the clips is to provide a sample of the teachings that you present with regard to the combative usage of knife… there you go, there's the context. Want more? Sure.

By your own words here, the context is as follows:
"The videos above are for effective fighting with a knife. Knife fighting itself has become to flashy and complicated. Holding a knife in your hand either regular grip or ice pick grip and squeezing hard is step one. Then you just need to fight as hard and as effectively as you know how. If you do fancy movements because you think you are cool, you will just lose. Punch, cut, rip, tare and stab. That is real knife fighting, nothing fancy just straight forward and brutal. Nothing nice about a knife in a fight.

These videos are for combative's which is fighting for your life. There is a difference between combat and a martial art that you train in for self development and discipline. Sure fancy movements are fun to train, but they just won't work for real."

There you go… your own context, provided by you.

They were not shown out of context.

These are not the only videos in my system that teach about knife.

Honestly, that doesn't fill me with any more confidence here…

I stand by the fact that this is the Evolution of Combatives.

Well, first off, that's not a fact, it's an opinion. One that I would posit is highly biased and largely ill-informed.

It's not just a bunch of movements. It teaches how to move the body in the most effective, powerful, efficient and natural way. Sure you don't see that in the snippets of clips, but that is because you don't know what I am doing and why I am doing it. That is fine. The videos are down so the misunderstandings can come to a halt.

It's not a bunch of movements, it's about how to move (which is movement)? Hmm…

But let's be a little more realistic here… no, it does not teach "how to move the body in the the most effective, powerful, efficient and natural way" (oh, for an Oxford comma…). The snippets of clips alone blow that belief out of the water, as you're not even moving in the most effective, powerful, efficient, or natural way for the actions you're actually showing. And frankly, we don't have to know "why" you're doing what you're doing… we can see what you're doing, and how you're doing it.

And, again, taking the videos down is not a good sign of your confidence in yourself there…

I know that if people train in my system no matter how good they already are, they will become better. The Evolution comes in the focusing of principles and incorporating them into the already effectiveness of combatives.

While it's good to have a healthy self belief, I wonder what actual basis this one of yours has? And what would happen if it was challenged by someone coming along and pulling apart the myriad issues your methods (and execution) appear to have? I mean, simply from watching the way you move, I would posit that my green belts would go backwards if following your teachings.

Ancient Swiss Medical Qigong is a real thing.

Yellow Bamboo is a real thing. It's still idiocy, of course…

It is not a martial art.

Er… don't think anyone suggested it was… just that it was another highly dubious name mixed among the other bizarre, red flag waving terms found on your website…

It is a system of stretching and exercise that focuses on Postural health, proper muscle length, creating balance in the body and incredible strength.

So it's more a rip off of yoga than of qi gong, then?

The man that created this system is Edward Feuz. He does not advertise it.

Wonder why...

It is very similar to what Paul Check teaches but better. I am not a coach in this system. I am just someone that has been practicing and living it for the past 3+ years. I broke my back when I was 21 and it is the only thing that has helped me. It taught me how the body is supposed to move. In our lives we become very much out of balance and this causes pain and overtime limits our ability to move our bodies freely. It brings us back to the physical state we were in when we were children.

Er… when we were children? Hmm…

Ed is now 70 years old, has a 10 pack and can lift 3 times his body weight. At his strongest he was lifting 6 times his body weight, which is unheard of.

So children can lift 3 times their bodyweight? Hmm… Oh, and yeah, it's unheard of. As in, no-one has ever heard of anyone actually being able to do anything close to that. It's only physically possible if you're an ant.

His family line are Swiss Mountain climbers. They know exactly what they are doing when it comes to developing incredible strength and endurance. They were the ones that marked the route for the railway system in the Rocky Mountains.

The Rockies are in Switzerland now? Must ask my family there about that…

I will break down the name Ancient Swiss Medical Qigong, the way it was explained to me. Ancient(Our original design), Swiss(Comes from Swiss Mountain Climbers), Medical(Can cure any physical imbalance), Qigong(uses and develops energy in the body through proper breathing through every movement).

Okay, so it's not ancient, as it's a modern invention with no real basis. It's Swiss only in that it was apparently invented by a Swiss person… but not in any cultural identity itself, from all descriptions here. It's not medical, as there is no medical basis for many of the claims you've made here… and "can cure any physical imbalance" is hardly a definition for "medical". And it's not qi gong, which is a specific Chinese approach to energy development and channeling… which is in no way mentioned or related to anything that Ed apparently invented.

So Ancient Swiss Medical Qigong, at best, is kinda Swiss… and that's about it.

Can you see why we may have issues with it?

The way I have incorporated this into my system is by keeping everything within proper healthy human movement. Using our natural range of motion. Everything connects to the core, I use joint focus, large muscle groups.

What? You use the muscle groups and limbs, as well as the joints the way they're designed to move?!? Wow, you are revolutionary!

Dude.

Fight or Flight are the natural reactions to stress.

An inaccurate oversimplification, but okay…

All the muscles used in Flight are also the same muscles that are used in Fight.

Er… what? As these are methods of response, and not physical actions themselves, I gotta ask… what the hell are you talking about?!?

Not saying I am the first person to realize this. I am just saying that Ancient Swiss Medical Qigong supports this and shows it on a level which most people are not aware of.

Oh boy…

Wing Chun is the only Kung Fu that what designed around human movement.

You do know that, well, pretty much all other non-animal systems may quite violently (and accurately) disagree with you there, yeah? I mean… what's your background in Choy Lay Fut to say that they're not "designed around human movement"? Hsing-i? Bagua? Sure, there are other philosophical constructs, but, in the end, they're based in what the body can do… you're not making it seem like you have much of a grasp of what you're talking about, you know…

When I started traininig in ASMQ I was able to understand what I was doing incorrectly. My imbalances caused me natural do things wrong.

Er… kay… maybe you were just doing things wrong? And if you'd stuck around past beginner level, that would have sorted itself out by actually, you know, training properly in the systems? Just sayin'…

My training in martial arts is not a joke.

Sure. But you're kidding yourself if you think it's something impressive to us as well.

I have been training the past 14 years and I train everyday.

Well done you. Give you another couple of decades, and we'll see what you think of your current abilities then.

It is my life. My certifications are not from weekend seminars. I earned my rankings and I train very hard.

Those green belts took 14 years, did they?

I understand why you would attack me. A lot of people in the martial arts world talk the talk but have never walked the walk.

Ha! Son, you really don't know who you're talking to here, do you? Tony, Elder, myself… never "walked the walk"… you do get that, from our perspective, you haven't even stood up yet, yeah?

I have trained with what I consider amazing teachers, who also trained with amazing teachers. Their knowledge and experience has been passed on to me.

Glad you feel that way. Of course, your considering them "amazing teachers" doesn't automatically make them so… just sayin'…

I know what I am offering is different. It is like nothing I've seen before. The combination of the 3 systems works so great together. They are all systems that are based on principles (Self Defense Traininng System, Wing Chun Kung Fu and Open Circle Fighting Method. I believe practicing principles is the best and most effective way to practice martial arts and combatives. It is about learning how to move the body and then using this understanding in all the techniques. It creates a base that the student can work from, a consistency that works through out the entire system.

Again, having belief in yourself and your system is good… but the proof is in the performance, and honestly, there is little but lack in everything shown from you.

I understand that people here have been training way longer than me. Which is awesome. I am not taking anything away from them. I do very much appreciate all the comments. My ego took a shot haha, but after stepping back and looking at all the comments with a clear and calm eye I was able to see what everyone was saying. It's not that I don't know what I'm talking about or that my form is bad. It is that my videos are seen out of context and there is no explanation to why I am doing what I am doing in the videos.

You're not taking anything away from those who have been doing this far longer than you? That's nice.

Oh, and by the way, yes, it is that your form is bad, and you don't know what you're talking about. And no, your videos are not seen out of context (frankly, I don't think you know what that even means), as the context is present in the videos themselves… they're samples to give an indication of what you teach. That's the context. Simply, it came up incredibly lacking, and we said so. That's not a lack of context, it's a lack of quality in the material shown.

I never said I was a knife expert.

Yet you chose to introduce us to your approach by posting two clips of yourself teaching your (very lacking) knife methods, with the title "Knife From WW3 Combatives"… certainly seems like you were putting yourself over as, at the very least, the example of the pinnacle of knife combat understanding in your (personally created) system…

… but of course, that's not the context, right?

They are 2 videos out of 162 of a complete system. If you were to have watched the entire striking module the knife videos would make total sense. My mistake was to share them without the background to go with them. Which leads to misunderstanding and barge of bashing lol.

No. Your knife work was fundamentally flawed, mechanically lacking, and betrayed a complete lack of understanding of the context of knife combat, or the realities of such a topic. It honestly doesn't matter what you think should have come before, the flaws in the clips were completely independent of anything that could have been given.

What is it that you train in? This will give me a better understanding of where you are coming and why you see things the way you do.

Go to my signature for some of my areas. Note here: some.

I just learned that I should not be speaking about Ed and his system. It is not my place to use his name. I would appreciate if we didn't go around telling everyone about him. Out of respect to his wishes. I was just trying to explain to everyone what my system is about. My understanding of his system and his family are way too limited for me to speak about it. I only know what I have been taught about my own body and the little stories he told me while we were training.

And the red flags just keep waving…

SIR, it is indeed useful to read your comments.. am not yet sure what Swiss qigong is also...However, I would say that in terms of principles based approach ...which is stepping on the shoulder of giants-all of whom you would respect...like Rick Moneymaker and Russell Stutely....I feel Joe has got something very worthy here in the whole system not just a few clips......he also has the courage to post things...check out his sources and influences and then ud get where hes coming from...none of us are true experts as we are all immature and developing..open mind is the way..as you know.

Hi Tony. Look, I'm known for being rather blunt here, so forgive this for being what it is, but…

No, they would not get automatically respected. I'd hardly call them "giants" in any way, shape, or form, bluntly. Frankly, they come across to me as little more than marketers, with less product to offer than their spiel's indicate. As far as Joe having something "very worthy" in the whole system, personally, I highly doubt that… at least from my perspective and vantage point. We have checked out his sources (such as we have been able to… "ninjitsu" is still a big question mark…), and found many of the wanting. Damien Ross is probably the best pedigree there, and my take on him isn't as glowing as others… although he does have more credibility than the others.

As far as "none of us are true experts, as we are all immature"… er… who exactly are you thinking you're addressing there? Cause, I gotta say… you may want to watch which direction you're pointing your generalities…

I have purchased ww3 combatives....would anyone be interested in my review?

It'd be interesting, sure.

As this is a friendly forum I feel I should start with the good points as far as I understand them..he has taken a combatives system... Damian Ross self defense training system -of which he was an instructor- and then looked at it with a view to adding the principles of Russell Stutelys OPEN CIRCLE fighting method...which draws on the Dragon society international grandmasters Muncy and Moneymaker.....I am a coach for OCFM...He then adds this technology to the combatives as he sees it should be done..plus wing chun principles etc.

This is an innovative thing to do and something I woud love to do ......so the actual concepts here are very sound....

Most bloggers here are objecting to the marketing......and some execution in clips.......I can fully understand the guys speaking from experience...the knife is an area I cant comment cos I don't think there is any real realistic defence....clear the weapon and attack..maybe.

so I defend the innovation ....we are all immature and getting better...he had the balls to do this and post....we were all younger once....so I think in time this innovation will catch on....just my opinion and in the true spirit of the martial arts I respect yours,T

Uh… okay… where was the actual review there? I mean… you basically said that you are a coach in one of the source systems, then said what Joe added (which he'd already given a number of times… but I gotta ask, "Dragon Society International Grandmasters"?!? You do realise that that's simply another collection of red flags, yeah?), and say that it's "an innovative thing to do" (actually, no, it's not… cobbling together disparate ideas is not innovative, creating something genuinely new and unique from disparate forms would be, but that's not what Joe has done here)… talk a bit about what you think the issue is (the marketing… uh, no, it's just as much the poor material, flawed ideas, and lacking physical skills), and then defend what you feel is the innovation… but you never, not once, actually review the system, the course, or anything of the kind.

Here's what a review would likely contain… a breakdown of the course itself… a description of the unique aspects, and how well they come across… pros and cons of the methods… you know, an actual review.

If you do Martial Arts for business...inevitably you will have to innovate..... then market like hell to be successful...have a competitive advantage etc.....those of us who earn their living in another field dont have to do this...so we can be overwhelmed by the claims etc......I take all with a pinch of salt but really listen to the principles and check if something would improve my efficiency in dangerous situations... in this I think combatives coupled with a knowledge of pressure zones and how the body works will be a sound concept and worth exploring.

Er… no. To most of that. Most importantly, no, you don't "inevitably innovate"… and, as mentioned by Frank, pressure point control is kinda diametrically opposed to combatives methodologies… so… huh?

 

[Juany118]

Not if the principles are contradictory. And, frankly, if a system is already principle based, adding other principles to it (from external sources) is simply overly complicating, muddying up, and missing the point of the actual system you think you're improving. I mean… if one system has a series of principles for power generation, adding alternate principles for power generation from other systems is completely pointless… you may buy 10 cars, but you can only drive one at a time

This definitely. As an example, my Guro/Sifu teaches Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali in the same class. Inosanto Kali includes multiple principles in its empty hand techniques in keeping with the JKD philosophy Guro Dan used to create it. The idea being that at a certain point the practitioner takes from it what works best for them. My Guro/Sifu on the other hand decided to stick with the empty hand maneuvers in Kali that share WC principles, in this way they reinforce each other rather than contradict. Imo this makes learning the next level of techniques far more intuitive as your understanding of the principles becomes deeper.