Knife Fighting Lies

[MJS]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html#knifefighting

While alot of this deals with the FMAs, I think that its worth posting here, as knife defense is taught in many arts, and IMHO, its a very important aspect of training.

I thought it would be interesting to discuss each of the points that Marc makes.

 

[Flying Crane]

I didn't read thru the whole thing thoroughly, and I cannot claim any level of expertise with the knife. However, what I did read I saw a lot of things that rang true to me.

 

[seasoned]

I yield to the 21 foot rule knowing that if someone wants to cut you, you will be cut. The only real thing is how bad, and can you retaliate enough, in time.

 

[MJS]

1) I agree with this. After watching Surviving Edged Weapons, unless you've got your weapon out already, or unless you're very quick, chances are the guy who has his out will beat you to the draw.

2) Agreed. This certainly isn't going to pan out like you'd see in the movies. LOL.

3) I agree, if you can get the hell out of there, do it!!! OTOH, I dont think we should necessarily disregard the fact that we may be presented with a situation in which running is an option.

4) This is one of my pet peeves about the arts....people seem to get into this pattern, in which they rely on a standard way of doing things, but what happens when things dont go as scripted? This is why in my classes, I teach a base tech, and then explore a number of 'what ifs' to get them thinking outside the box.

5) Another thing that I dislike and I see it all the time in Kenpo. One person attacks, the defender starts to defend, all the while the attacker stands like a statue, while the defender blasts away hitting him 10+ times. Nope, dont work that way.

6) I wish that Marc mentioned how he goes about dealing with this. Maybe he did and I just missed it, I dont know. Anyways, I feel that getting control is important. Nothing fancy, just get control. The disarms are not that high on the priority list, initially, for me.

7) No, if someone is attacking you with a deadly weapon, I think that trying to 'wound' them isnt the wisest choice. As Marc said, its like having a gun, and trying to shoot the leg.

8) Agreed.

9) Couldn't agree more, esp. with his 3rd line. This is another pet peeve...people assume that because their master can do it, and their masters master can do it, and so forth, that they too can. I disagree. Personally, I dont care if my teacher can do it, I want to make sure that *I* can do it! As simple a tool as a knife is, IMO, if you're not working with it on a very regular basis, no, I think calling yourself a fighter is foolish.

10) Agreed. OTOH, I do think that it is an area worth looking at. Using the example that Marc gave, in the event you are in a grapple and a blade comes out, I think that knowing how to deal with it is important.

11) Agree.

12) No, you dont need 70yrs of training to stab someone. However, I would consider the likes of people such as Bram Frank, Leo Gaje, Remy Presas, etc., to be experts with the blade, because chances are, they've devoted a hell of alot more time than the average student and have a much deeper understanding of the blade, than many.

13) Yup.

14)Agreed!

15) LOL, I laugh, because I've said this myself many times, though not using the word 'ultimate'. I say that the FMAs are, IMO, the best source to go to, although there are other systems out there that are very good with a knife as well, though some may not be as available as the FMAs. If someone asks about skill with the knife, I refer to the FMAs due to the fact that its a large part of that art. Sure, there're knife techs, usually in the form of disarms, in Kenpo, but IMO, I dont consider Kenpo to be a knife art. If I want to get better with ground skills, I'm not going to go to a stand up art, I'm going to seek out BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, Judo.

16) Not sure how its easy, but.....

17) Agreed with Marc.

18) Drills are drills. What needs to be done, is the drills need to be expanded upon.

19) Yup, this'll certainly land ya in a bunch of trouble.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I like Marc, to an extent.......but reading things he wrote sometimes tries my patience......not because he's slaying any sacred cows, but because they all follow the same format.....'This doesn't work, that doesn't work, this will get you killed, that's wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah'.....

Yeah, we get it, Marc, everyone's got the wrong idea........now tell us what DOES work.

 

[MJS]

I like Marc, to an extent.......but reading things he wrote sometimes tries my patience......not because he's slaying any sacred cows, but because they all follow the same format.....'This doesn't work, that doesn't work, this will get you killed, that's wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah'.....

Yeah, we get it, Marc, everyone's got the wrong idea........now tell us what DOES work.

You hit the nail on the head. On another note, I noticed that Marc was active on another forum, so I had emailed him, extending an invite and SM here. His last log on here was in 2009, but it would be nice if he did pop on and clarified some things.

 

[Aiki Lee]

My take on this if anyone cares to know:

1. Agreed, if a knife is drawn it likely won't be in some West Side Stroy approach where u clearly see the other guy has a knife (unless he just wants to threaten and hasn't decided to kill you just yet). Even if you see the knife, adrenaline and fear will likely make it very hard to fumble around for yours.

2. 100% agree

3. I agree with this as well. I think our egos will tells us that as "super martial artists" we should be able to fight off anyone instead of doing the smart thing and getting the Eff outta there. But its always good to train for a worst case scenerio. The goal should always be get home safe, never "look how tough I am".

4. Agreed. And MJS, I like your approach. We do somehting similar. I think it is important to let everyone know how dangerous ANYBODY can be with a knife and show how things break down and become extremely chaotic.

5. Actally this was something that was considered in the creation of aiki ninjutsu. My teachers saw this sorta thing all the time to and decided that skill needs to be tested under stressed conditions where the attacker continues to attack and resist.

6. Personally I don't see why you would move in on person with a knife who was just waiting for you. If he charges then you need to preserve your life at anymeans necessary. If he does nothing and is waiting for you, then get outa there! If for whatever reason you have to move through a guy, then don't go for the disarm unless you are already close. Id say look for something to even the odds. Grab a chair, a grabage can, your jacket anything to use as a shield and/or weapon to get you the opportunity to escape.

7. I agree with MJS, and have no further comment on this one.

8. Also agreed.

9. Also agreed with respect to Japanese systems of combat.

10. MJS, i agree again.

11. Principles and concepts of fighting are the same regardless of weapons, but yes the movements can be completely different and not physically resemble an unarmed fight. Weapons make things different. There is no getting around that.

12. I figure when someone is a master level martial artist or professional warrior they tend to be more dangerous regardless of what they have in their hands.

13. Agreed. IMO I feel all MA practice should come from a perspective of life or death combat and not of "fighting" in sense of someone trying to ruff you up. Teach them to treat everyone as if they are skilled and deadly and never underestimate anyone. If you aren't fighting to keep yourself or others safe from real physical harm, then you shouldn't be fighting.

14. Also agreed.

15. I agree with this

16. Knife disarms are simple but not easy. There is a difference.

17. Agreed.

18. I agree with MJS. Marc makes reference that the attack usually doesn't attack with the force or energy a real attacker would, but then again neither does the defender. Creating the proper kind of energy for the training to make it as realistic as possible is important, but you can't expect someone to go 100% speed and power during training exercises.

19. People should be aware of legal and civil consequences for any kind of fighting behavior and consider whether such actions are worth those consequences or not. It is up to the individual whether he feels stabbing the would be muggar is worth a prision sentence.

Training in general needs to be treated seriously. Whether using a knife, a sword, a stick, or your bare hands, martial arts should not be game to people.

 

[Chris Parker]

It's a decent list, but nothing earth shattering to my mind and approach. To be honest, I saw an old clip of Mark doing some knife defence work which I felt was a little lacking, but then again that was a while ago (that the clip was made). But for the record....:

1: Yep, especially if it's a folder. There's a law that states that anything mechanical will always fail when its needed the most....

That is, of course, in addition to Mark's point about not being aware of a knife being involved until far too late to draw your own (knife or gun).

2: Absolutely. Although I don't think that this idea is restricted to knife, or even armed assault, I think it applies to most assaults honestly.

3: Okay.... yeah. More about the mindset that can be applied, really. And honestly I think that that is again a big difference between martial arts and self defence, martial arts deal with engaging in combat, self defence is more about doing what you need to to get home safely (including leaving the situation/running away when you can or need to).

4: Once again, very much what I have said here on a range of threads about the difference between a trained attacker and an untrained one. Oh, and I quite like Don's book, by the way.

5: Yep, again. This is where our resistance training comes into it, built into our drills (more on that later).

6: On the subject of gross-motor techniques having a chance, and the fine-motor and complex ones being far less available, well, I think I've mentioned that once or twice myself.... however, I disagree with Marks' take on why they exist in systems. I've said it a number of times, if the only reason for the training is pragmatic skills, then training in a martial art is rather counter-productive for the most part, as it's teaching things that are rather counter to that aim. So there are other reasons for such techniques and tactics to be there (and it's not so devious as simply taking people's money).

7: Hmm, now here we start to disagree. The reason to use Bio-metric cutting is not to be "merciful" and try to avoid lethal actions, it's to end the threat as soon as possible. A lethal action can take a while to stop the threat, during which time you can still be lethally injured yourself, whereas a cut to the tendons controlling the knife arm (for instance) can stop that threat immediately.

8: Ha, agreed in spades! Simply look to a recent discussion on "What Sword System/Kata is This?" for more about that.....

9: Agreed again. I'd add more to it (the way Kali acts when dealing with blades versus the way a blade is typically used, but that simply takes us back to Number 4)

10: Okay, he's applying a more limited use of the term "grappling" than I do (seeming to limit it to just ground-based grappling), so while I agree about the ground-based aspect, stand-up has a huge number of benefits, namely in controlling the weapon hand itself. Of course, that presupposes that by that stage you are aware of the knife....

11: Yep, weapon work is weapon work, not unarmed with a weapon... one of my biggest gripes too (my students know that pretty well, I hope....)

12: Masters of various knife and blade-based systems? Certainly exist. People with real experience at using a knife against other people? Ditto. Are they the same people? Very rarely (and hopefully less often than that!). One is a martial artist, the other is a criminal (murderer). So, in essence, agreed. That said, there are the stories of people like Jim Bowie.... although I always look at the number of almost lethal injuries he took on during the course of gaining that experience. Not a recommended career path.

13: Absolutely.

14: Hmm, I agree that such measures are required, to me the "expect to get cut" quote doesn't mean that nothing is done to prevent it, it is a way of making sure that the person doesn't freeze at the (unexpected) sight and shock of their own blood. Being aware of the fact that statistically anyone involved in a knife altercation will be cut (at the least) means that an understanding of the damage is being taken into account, and if the teacher isn't taking their limiting the amount of damage taken into account when training the students, then they haven't understood the phrase in the first place.

15: Once again, agreed. Personally, I go primarily to Michael Janich, who is trained in FMA's himself, but has spent a lot of time exploring things such as the realities behind Fairbairns "Timetable of Death". There's a lot more to why I go for Michaels approach, of course, but that's enough of an intro (do check out his stuff if you get the chance, though!).

16: Ha! When I last took my students through what we refered to as "Knife Survival" (see below) I asked for feedback afterwards, and one of my students basically said that any thought they had about how easy it may be was completely and utterly destroyed. See a knife, run! And make sure you get as much distance between you and them as possible (at least 20+ feet).

17: Once again, completely agreed.

18: Well, it may be said that if the drills are approached properly (teaching principles of movement and so on), then it does teach you to fight/survive etc. But it does come down to how the drills are conducted and trained, as Mark says.

19: And finally, completely agreed. Again, self defence dictates an understanding of the law as it relates to the material being taught (whereas a martial art isn't concerned with that at all).

Below is something I posted on another thread, dealing with pressure testing training. It goes through our approach to knife survival training (although obviously not giving everything away....), I feel it covers a fair amount of the things that Mark was talking about, although it's not knife fighting, as in this area only the attacker is armed.

The way I covered knife survival (as opposed to knife defence, by the way) was as follows:
Week one - basic evasion skills and awareness of a weapon. Covered as a concept, then drilled. A set routine of attacks (high cut from the right, high cut from the left, low cut right, low cut left, high thrust, low thrust) with one specific jam-and-redirect concept. This is followed by drilling, increasing the pressure. At the end of the class, free evasion and deflection against random knife attacks (working on escape and distancing).
Week two - Working on the same as the week before, adding evasions against the cutting routine, and jam-and-push against the attacks, then again a more free-form with the added options for the students, again working towards attacks.
Week three - Adding jam-and-catch to the outside to the drills. Then adding the opponent trying to get their weapon back, ensuring that the catch is stable, and that you aren't about to be knocked over. Then, simple striking (to viable targets without releasing control of the weapon) to escape. Free form training to test the skills (any of the previous trained skills are allowed).
Week four - Same as week three, but jam-and-catch to the inside (less safe, so outside is prefered, that's why we did that one first). Resistance with the opponent trying to get their knife back, strike to escape, and then drill as a free-form exercise.
Week five (if the month allows) - add gross-motor takedowns, drill, drill with resistance, then free form with any of the previous skills allowed.
By the end of the month the students should have developed some skill with evading and escaping knife attacks. After each free-form pressure drill, I asked who was cut. And frankly, I told them that if they didn't get cut, they weren't under enough pressure.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing I think to consider is that there are no absolutes! What may work in one instance may get your killed in another. Each individual situation will need a unique approach to getting out of it!

 

[Flying Crane]

I like Marc, to an extent.......but reading things he wrote sometimes tries my patience......not because he's slaying any sacred cows, but because they all follow the same format.....'This doesn't work, that doesn't work, this will get you killed, that's wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah'.....

Yeah, we get it, Marc, everyone's got the wrong idea........now tell us what DOES work.

good point, but given the amount of nonsense that gets taught out there, this might be the logical place to start the discussion...

 

[Flying Crane]

#6 and #7 are two topics that I feel are relevant to martial arts at large, and not limited to just knife issues. A lot of what I see in general martial arts, taught as curriculum, just seems like pure and unrealistic fantasy.

 

[Aiki Lee]

When it comes to realistic movement the large gross motor skills are obviously what you are going to use in a real altercation and should be trained diligently. That being said, I think that experimentation with fine motor skills under pressure can be beneficial to training in the sense that it helps develop greater control over one's own body.

 

[sgtmac_46]

good point, but given the amount of nonsense that gets taught out there, this might be the logical place to start the discussion...

That's true, but the thing that annoys me about Marc is that he writes it as if he's the first person that has figured it out!

It comes off as a more sophisticated sales pitch for his products.......hey, i'm sold you know something about something, Marc, now tell us what you know!

But it's really an issue of style rather than of substance......I completely acknowledge that Marc does know what he's talking about, from all indications........just that i've read too many of his 'Exposing what will get you sued/dead/jailed' articles.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's true, but the thing that annoys me about Marc is that he writes it as if he's the first person that has figured it out!

It comes off as a more sophisticated sales pitch for his products.......hey, i'm sold you know something about something, Marc, now tell us what you know!

But it's really an issue of style rather than of substance......I completely acknowledge that Marc does know what he's talking about, from all indications........just that i've read too many of his 'Exposing what will get you sued/dead/jailed' articles.

ah, sure I see what you mean. Honestly I'm not really at all acquainted with him or what he does. I've heard his name before, but prior to this article I'm not sure I've ever read or looked at any of his stuff.

 

[MA-Caver]

Interesting read, thread and thoughts from all so far.

I won't go into what I think about this guy, except that he probably has his own ideas which are pretty good. He states that he has been in fights involving blades. I have also a few times (with scars to prove it). Still I won't agree with everything that he says and have my own thoughts on the points/lies he has listed.

1. Not having time to draw your weapon depends largely upon the state of awareness you are in at the moment. Totally unaware and yes, nobody is going to have time to draw their weapon at the moment of conflict. Yet those who have trained with their blades will automatically (or should) draw their blades at the soonest opportunity. It is in my thought that a MA-ist will react to a sudden movement towards them and will have either moved away or blocked (with or without consequence, i.e. being cut or not). Depending upon the training the particular MA-ist or SD-trained individual has they're going to get into their stance or have their blade out and ready to counter the next move.
I agree that it is a stupid attacker who shows their weaponry prior to their attack. No West Side Story where the blade comes out and they stand there to gloat at your paralysis before striking. That's Hollywood through and through. Sadly Hollywood has tainted a lot of what is or isn't correct in the realm of knife-fighting or ANY fighting for that matter. This is where a lot of people end up being seriously hurt or dead.

2. Agreed it is a lie. Of all the fights I've been in I've always tried to find a way to stack the deck. I'm sure the guys who I've fought were thinking along the same lines.

3. Being cornered is a sticky situation indeed. Especially if you're out-numbered and they're all ready for you to make a break for it. Cops know this which is why they call for back-up so that the odds are stacked in THEIR favor. As far as "incredibly difficult to "corner" someone who is determined to leave..." if you got the odds in your favor, bigger/better weapon or several others on your side, the person wanting to leave may make a struggle but they're going to lose. Granted some are going to get hurt or killed but the cornered person is inevitably going to lose out. As he stated "Your pride and ego will blind you about what you are doing until it is too late..." very true.

4. Strongly agree here. You simply cannot predict what any one person will do at any one time.

5. Agreed, nobody is that stupid, no matter how much we see in the contrary in day to day life. Someone getting into a fight or initiating an attack is going to be cautious about their bodies and how they attack you... unless they're drunk/drugged up then they just won't care. Being prepared for the unexpected may grant you a few seconds necessary to do what you must.

6. If the victim of an attack is willing to get cut they may be able to "defang the snake" but they'll need to be prepared to go to the hospital for stitches. In truth, unless an attacker is drunk or pathetically slow the odds of successfully catching his hand and doing all these marvelous joint locks or controlling moves are very, very slim. Furthermore you are not going to be able to effectively control a wildly struggling opponent's arm with only one hand. Odds are that he will be able to wiggle free of it and cause you some degree of damage. Not to mention this very true statement here: On top of the already unpleasant realities, there is something else that is far more important. Okay, so it's only important if you *don't* like taking showers with lots of guys with tattoos. Once you disarm an opponent whether by leverage or your own blade, if you continue to use the knife on him, that isn't self-defense anymore.

7. He makes good points here. Cutting to wound instead of kill and etc. Still even further good points about the law. Which is why it was stated numerous times on this forum throughout to know the laws where you live to help you prepare for your day in court.

8. Sticks and knives are two totally different weapons... no arguments there.

9. Agreed again here. It's not always what you know but your willingness to USE it and your ability which depends upon how long and how often you have trained in it.

10. Grappling with a knife... scary thought. As he pointed out it just brings you that much closer to the business end(s) of the blade. Again Hollywood makes this look easy. Cue dramatic music and two guys are fighting on the ground and one has a knife, both are trying to wrestle control of the blade before it does serious damage to them. Remember that one scene from Saving Private Ryan? The german soldier on top of the american one and how that ended up? Same idea.

11. "However, if it is instead my will, everything in between my will and my knife will be likely to move to achieve my ends. And that is far more effective for staying alive." True that, as my own experience will bear out.

12. Yeah, and there's master swordsmen, and marksmen and so on. Weapons are only as good as the person using them, otherwise they're just inanimate objects.

13. Yep... RUN!

14. Trade a cut for a kill, but nothing else. Well... not necessarily. In one fight I got slashed in the arm and managed to get my own blade to the guy's neck and I held it there. This (fortunately) scared the guy enough where he froze and dropped his own knife at my command. Granted not everyone is going to do this and I got VERY damned lucky that I drew this guy for this particular confrontation. Had it been anyone else, I dunno nor do I want to even try to speculate what would've happened. What was even more lucky was that I didn't panic when I did get cut, I was already p-o-ed and the cut I received made me wake up and stop my blade-point from entering his neck and I was able to defuse the situation quickly and get away... with him running in the opposite direction.

15. I never liked the idea of saying one art is better than the other either.

16. Agree that it's a huge lie. Easy? Try taking MY blade away from me.

17. You cannot stand there and engage in a long, drawn out contest with an armed opponent. If you try to do so, you will lose. It is not a matter of if, but of when. Again, true that!

18. Drills will teach you how to box, drills will teach you how to round-house kick, drills will teach you the Kenpo "Dance of Death", drills will help you put your furniture together (j/k). Drills are only going to get you part of the way through any altercation, knife or no.

19. The only way I've found to get away with using a knife on someone was not getting caught, i.e. not being around when the cops showed up and being autonomous as in "that guy fought some other guy who took off down that way about 5 minutes ago." That and hoping that if someone who knew me decides to shut the hell up when questioned. Again I've been lucky.

Awareness and being mentally prepared and mentally assessing all possible escape routes and learning how to defuse a volatile situation may help keep a person out of prison. If it's an attack on the street and you managed to hurt (or kill) your attacker... as bad as this advice is going to sound, get the hell outta there or get on your cell phone and wake up your favorite attorney.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Don't disagree strongly with any of his points - I'm not a knife expert - but (like other posters) his presentation gives me pause. It's all advertising text.

He assumption of personal authority, straw man arguments, appeal to emotion and subtle suggestion that you're an idiot if you disagree - the same things you see in political campaign speeches and advertising copy.

I've read other work by this author, and it's much in the same vein. When he has written on things I'm knowledgeable about, he's been about 70 percent right with 30 percent spin, plus a healthy dose of the "Look at me! I'm such a badass!" talk I normally associate with 19 years olds who don't know what they're talking about.

 

[MJS]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/marcmacyoung.html#streetfighter

I found this interesting, specifically this part:

"Since the age of 10, he has studied several styles of martial arts, including Karate, Wing Chun, Baqua/Hsing-I, Five Family Gung fu, Boxing, Western swordsmanship, Kali and various forms of Pentjak Silat. That's thirty five years of training and application. He has field-stripped and bastardized every style he studied in order to make it street effective. However, out of respect to his teachers and their styles, when it comes to martial arts, he doesn’t claim to teach anything other than the training system he and his wife Dianna have created, Dango Jiro. A body movement and tactical application system that draws from all of those arts (Don't be confused by the Japanese name, it means "Mulligan Stew"). When it comes to street survival and professional use of force he teaches No Nonsense Self-Defense. A combination of formal martial arts techniques and principles and his real life experience, supported by research into the areas of psychology, criminology, sociology and legal use of force."

So, he's studied some of the same systems that he questioned in the other article, yet he's done what many people seem to do (I do it with Kenpo) with their respective arts, that being, breaking the stuff down, and seperating the meat from the fat, so to speak. Whats interesting about this approach, IMO anyways, is that often when you hear people doing this, a common response to that is, "Well, you're making changes because you really dont have an understanding of the art. If you 'really' knew the system, then you'd know nothing has to be changed."

Yes, I hear this myself, many times. LOL. Is it really because the person doesnt know the art, or is it because the people who say nothing needs to be changed, are in denial that alot of the stuff may not work and in fact should be changed?

 

[Aiki Lee]

honestly MJS, I think its both. The 1st bunch of people don't stick around long enough to understand the principles and the second group likely have teachers that don't recognize limitations of training.

I think any martial artist that masters his system realizes that the way things are taught are not necessarily the way things are done when the stuff hits the fan in the real world.

 

[Chris Parker]

My take is slightly different....

Each of us are individuals (well, actually.... close enough, anyway!), and as a result, we all come to martial arts for slightly or greatly different reasons. And as a result, it can be rather high odds to find a martial art that is exactly what someone is looking for, nothing more, nothing less. As a result, when someone like Marc trains in a system, he is looking at it through a very specific filter, that of "can I pull this off in real life, and does this match the reality I know and understand?". Anything that doesn't fit that is deemed as unnecessary, and needs to be removed.

However that denies the actual reasons such aspects may be in there in the first place. It may not be there for the reasons that the individual training is training for, and in those circumstances, sure, take it out if you feel it's getting in the way. But that doesn't mean that it's a pointless part of the art, just that it's addressing things that the person isn't focused on training for.

When it comes to me, I always assume that there is a reason for whatever the art has in it's make-up. Basically, there is always a reason (and I'm not quite cynical enough to think that the reason is money... there're easier ways to keep a student than coming up with another 29 ways of handling a straight right cross....), so I look for that. And if the reason is not something that you're after, then that's fine. But to my mind by removing the aspects of the "art" side of a martial art, you lose it. That's fine if you're after self defence only (which is Marc's approach), but that is frankly far from the be-all end-all here, just one single approach really.

 

[Eazy]

I agree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmH1r73tjhY&feature=related the Proof and truth is here