kicking the knee
- Thread starter opr1945
- Start date
Fungus
Black Belt
I think the theory is that even if you do not actually "break" any bones/joints, knee ligament damages are likely, which I think is bad enough so we do not do this in kyokushin sparring for that reason. I think this would be useful for close range self defense but not in sparring (as is the case with many other techniques as well)
A more friendly version is to use the ball of the foot against the thighs more as a pushing to keep your opponent from getting too close, common in thai boxing. This is effective and I tested this in sparring.
Fungus
Black Belt
Simlar to this?
a very common and powerful kick we do alot in kyokushin but mostly to the thighs, it will not damage the knee ligaments, but can be more painful than a regular shin low kick and easier at short range
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Anytime the knee bends the way it shouldn't there is a chance of serious damage, including breaking. This is especially true with a frontal kick to a straight knee. That seems common sense. They are prime targets in old traditional karate (which concentrates on close-in combat) and several kata contain kicks to them, from the front and side. At the very least attacks to the knee will break the opponent's balance and structure allowing for finishing head strikes.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
I am Shodan in Shotokan but it has been some time since I have actively practiced beyond running through the Kata. But I think my comments will apply to this thread and to other styles as well.
Relative to Kata, in application, a kick to the front of the knee is either a defensive movement (a knee check), or a destroying offensive movement. The same can be said about the side of the knee. The key is the position of the opponent's leg at the moment of the kick.
The knee is a very strong joint with a great amount of muscular and ligature support. Just like any other joint however, if struck while the knee is in the right position, damaging the joint is much easier.
Kicking the side of the knee while it is bent is a low injury risk kick that is very good at knocking an opponent off balance. You have to visualize the complex lever the leg makes when bent and see where/how the force of the kick is going to move the leg. Even a heavily weighted leg because hip movement will kick in and help protect the knee.
Kicking the knee when leg is straight could hyper-extend the ligaments and do damage. But there are several variables that could work for or against the intent of injury. Weight, how the leg is loaded, ground surface, age/pliability, etc... all play a factor.
I have had way more than my share of knee/leg injuries. Other than the patella (knee cap), I have never heard of a broken knee. Broken Femur and tib/fib? Yes.
What usually gets injured from a kick to the knee are the ligaments and cartilage.
Way back in the '80's when I was in the TKD national circuit, the rules were still very much in flux and a bit grey in many areas. Knee kicks were illegal, but you would get three warnings before being disqualified so some fighters would try to take you out twice then never try again. It really changed the fight dynamic of the first round.
When I was 17 my right knee was literally Pelicaned while playing football. I jumped to make an interception and when I came down a receiver made a well-timed hit to the front of my leg/knee while all my weight was coming down on the leg. The knee completely dislocated and stayed that way, which really freaked me out!
We always had EMS at games, and they came out while I was trying to straighten my leg back out. Being young, athletic, and amped up from the game and injury, I was not feeling much pain. The EMS was trying to put my leg in an immobilizer, trying to move the leg just enough to get the immobilizer on when the leg snapped back into place. Both guys jumped back when it happened. Really amazing.
Being young and in shape made a world of difference on recovery and downtime. There was only minor ligament injury (slight tears) and a whole lot of swelling. Against the doctor's orders, I play in the last two games that year.
I'm not any kind of medical professional, but I don't think knees break so much as the joint is damaged or destroyed. Knees are very strong in the directions they're intended to move. Not so strong when forced in other directions, I think.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter what the official explanation of what happens to a knee when a powerful blow from the side or front is received if it has the intended effect of ending a threat. I've been taught a number of knee attacks. I can't really say I'd intentionally use them in a self defense situation, though. Not because they wouldn't be effective, but rather because I've got other tools I'd tend to use first. It just wouldn't occur to me.
One, it’s actually really difficult to “break” a knee.
The chasse frontal bas or oblique kick is the knee kick of choice in the FMA. It can deliver amazing force to the knee or ligament above the knee. Especially if the opponent stands straight legged. Because FMA is bladed weapon cognizant it stays low and follows a straight line. It’s difficult to recognize and defend against. Think Jon Jones.
The stomping crescent kick, side kick, angled off side kick or the Thai inside knee with stomp are all super techniques and have their place in self defense.
The chasse frontal bas or oblique kick is the knee kick of choice in the FMA. It can deliver amazing force to the knee or ligament above the knee. Especially if the opponent stands straight legged. Because FMA is bladed weapon cognizant it stays low and follows a straight line. It’s difficult to recognize and defend against. Think Jon Jones.
The stomping crescent kick, side kick, angled off side kick or the Thai inside knee with stomp are all super techniques and have their place in self defense.
Yes, if the knee is moving, applying force from an opposing direction will slow it. Although this is usually referred to as jamming rather than braking.
Strikes to joints don't break anything, as a rule. They dislocate, they stretch or tear connective tissues, but they really don't break anything.
If you kick your opponent's knee, at that moment, your opponent cannot kick you, you can enter kicking range safely. Sometimes, your kick is not trying to hurt your opponent, but to feel where your opponent's leading leg is.
In this video, he touches his leg to the
- outside of his opponent's leg, and then
- inside of his opponent's leg,
before he applies his throw. The same reason that he wants to make sure that his opponent's leg won't give him any problem during his entering.
If you can sense your opponent's leg, you can sense his intention (whether your opponent intends to move toward you, move away from you, or move to the side).
In this video, he touches his leg to the
- outside of his opponent's leg, and then
- inside of his opponent's leg,
before he applies his throw. The same reason that he wants to make sure that his opponent's leg won't give him any problem during his entering.
If you can sense your opponent's leg, you can sense his intention (whether your opponent intends to move toward you, move away from you, or move to the side).
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Just curious. Why are you asking. I'm reading this and the responses from other and it feels like there may be something more to your question. I can't tell if you want to know out of curiosity or if you had a previous discussion with someone and now you are trying to gather information.
I almost get the feeling a if someone told you that kicking the knee won't work in self-defense or something like that.
OP
OP
opr1945
Black Belt
Just curious. Why are you asking.
OK, I was not as clear about my inquire as I could have been. Back when I was young I was taking class on quick ways to end a street fight when someonewas already in your face. One of the techniques was to kick your oppenent in the knee, disabling him. Made sense to me. I kept that in m y mind all these years, never actually had to try it. The other day I saw a video said this most likeley won't work.
so all these years been keeping a thought that is invalid? Not sparing. Thanks.
OK, I was not as clear about my inquire as I could have been. Back when I was young I was taking class on quick ways to end a street fight when someonewas already in your face. One of the techniques was to kick your oppenent in the knee, disabling him. Made sense to me. I kept that in m y mind all these years, never actually had to try it. The other day I saw a video said this most likeley won't work.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
This is more specific.
An effective strike to the knee may disable the opponent to a lesser or greater degree, but IMO the main thing is that it quickly and effectively sets the opponent up for further damage on follow-up that will end the fight as part of an overall attack strategy. Against an untrained fighter, or a careless trained one, the knee is quite accessible and vulnerable.
It's only going to work if their knee/leg is immobilized. If their weight is off it enough that the leg can be moved, it's not likely to do much. Or if the kick lands in such a way as to flex the knee. It's only really destructive if their weight is on the leg and the kick moves the knee in ways it's not supposed to move.
