Kenpo Terminology

[arnisandyz]

hi all, let me start this out by saying I'm NOT a Kenpo practitioner, but do find elements and concepts of Kenpo similar to concepts of Arnis and intresting.

I was just wondering how everybody feels about the terminology (dance of death, five swords, Scraping Hoof, Falcons of Force, Bear & Ram, etc)? Does it help you understand the techniques better or is it confusing? Do you feel it is really neccesary? Do you think its "cool"? In the style that I study we use words that describe the technique (gunting means scissors - to explain a scissor like motion, or payong means umbrella - to describe a block that covers overhead like an umbrella). In other instances i have had instructors that said "just do it like this - the technique didn't even have a name. As i read through some of the Kenpo treads I get really lost trying to follow because I'm not familiar with the terminology. Maybe the terminology was invented for this reason, so that only the initiated would understand? No disrespect intended, but from an outside point of view looking in, its very confusing. I know other styles have similar terminology like Tai chi's serpent descends, perching bird, tide comes in, etc...

Thanks

Andy

 

[Touch Of Death]

Our technique names generaly represent the spirit of the tech. Scraping hoof should be almost self explanitory, but as you mentioned some names are cryptic. Dance of death gets its name from the extension that is taught later in the art, and five swords simply makes mention of the multiple sword hand strikes it contains. I'm quite certain most practicioners think the names are cool but when your dealing with 154 techs plus, "this one" doesn't cut it anymore.
Sean (www.iemat.com)

 

[Ceicei]

Andy,

There was a thread that was started on this very subject. You may refer to:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3295&highlight=Kenpo+terminology

- Ceicei

 

[Thesemindz]

I guess I fail to see the difference between using terms like payong and gunting, and using terms like twig, hammer, and hoof. Or atemi waza, or o soto gari for that matter. If you don't speak the language, it's all greek to you. Once you speak Kenpo, it all begins to make sense. Just like deashi harai would make sense to me if I spoke Japanese.


-Rob

 

[Kenpodoc]

I guess I fail to see the difference between using terms like payong and gunting, and using terms like twig, hammer, and hoof. Or atemi waza, or o soto gari for that matter. If you don't speak the language, it's all greek to you. Once you speak Kenpo, it all begins to make sense. Just like deashi harai would make sense to me if I spoke Japanese.


-Rob

No real difference. You could just use technique #s if you chose. It's just a memory technique and allows for a common language with which to communicate. Each system has it's own language, usually with different dialects at different schools. Some languages are simpler, some more specific.

Jeff

 

[Michael Billings]

No real difference. You could just use technique #s if you chose. It's just a memory technique and allows for a common language with which to communicate. Each system has it's own language, usually with different dialects at different schools. Some languages are simpler, some more specific.

Jeff

In fact, per Sigung LaBounty this weekend, Mr. Parker actually did just have the techniques numbered initially. Of course there were a lot fewer of them.

-Michael

 

[loki09789]

even trying to translate Kenpo/style specific definitions vs. tactical/strategic/military science definitions for the same term can create confusion.

Within Kenpo - and it seems some FMA's as well - there are 'basic techniques' which are punches and kicks and the like which are different from 'technique' which are preset responses to attack angles or some other stimulus (grabs, chokes....).

Within tactical communities techniques are just mechanical, procedural practices. Tactics are when you apply them.

So within martial artists, a technique is how you respond to a punch BUT within tactical 'combatives' a tactic is how you apply a technique to respond to a punch.... creates some confusion because to a MArtist 'tactical' stuff is awareness training, environmental adaptations..... martial artists don't generally see give and take drills or two person katas... as tactical training. Within the larger tactical community though ANY training that creates a stimulus/response programming is tactical training.

 

[arnisandyz]

I guess I fail to see the difference between using terms like payong and gunting, and using terms like twig, hammer, and hoof. Or atemi waza, or o soto gari for that matter. If you don't speak the language, it's all greek to you. Once you speak Kenpo, it all begins to make sense. Just like deashi harai would make sense to me if I spoke Japanese.


-Rob

Let me see if I can explain a little clearer, i was just using FMA terminology as an example because I am familiar with it, but gunting is Tagalog (a Philippine language) for scissors to decribe a scissors like motion. In Kenpo terminolgy you are speaking one language (English) and coming up with another English phase to describe it Club = Storm. While I can figure out a relationship from club to storm (storm beats down?) its not very obvious. I can see how 'scissors' = scissor like motion. As someone else stated, some are more obvious that others, and that link that Ceicei gave helps tremendously (thanks). I was just wondering why call a CLUB a STORM when you can just call it a CLUB? No disrespect intended.

 

[Thesemindz]

Let me see if I can explain a little clearer, i was just using FMA terminology as an example because I am familiar with it, but gunting is Tagalog (a Philippine language) for scissors to decribe a scissors like motion. In Kenpo terminolgy you are speaking one language (English) and coming up with another English phase to describe it Club = Storm. While I can figure out a relationship from club to storm (storm beats down?) its not very obvious. I can see how 'scissors' = scissor like motion. As someone else stated, some are more obvious that others, and that link that Ceicei gave helps tremendously (thanks). I was just wondering why call a CLUB a STORM when you can just call it a CLUB? No disrespect intended.

No, no, I wasn't offended at all. I'm just saying that each martial art has it's own language. You're probably right. The "code" was probably written, at least in part, to seperate the initiated from the ignorant. That's generally true of all martial arts in some fashion I think. For instance, in BJJ they have a north south position, and a reverse scarf position. Heck, could any of us decipher rear naked choke based solely on the name? You're right that Mr. Parker used english to create a new language of Kenpo, and the technique names are just the beginning. We use lots of terms like Marriage of Gravity, Rebound Energy, and Back up Mass, which mean more or less what they sound like, but essentially are just ways to hit a guy harder.

Of course, the reason that FMA uses gunting and Judo uses o soto gari is because those are the languages spoken in the countries of origin of those arts. Then again, you'd probably still have to explain how "scissors" applies to the technique. And how is that really any different from if we called a technique, Scissoring the Storm? People would be just as confused by scissoring as they would be by storm. At least until you taught them how to think.

By the way, one of the reasons Storm means club is because the safest place to be in a hurricane or tornado is at the eye of the storm, or way, way, far away. Similar with a club. When defending against a circular motion you can move out, up the circle, or in to the eye of the storm. And like a hurricane or tornado, the most energy in the club attack is right on the outside edge of the weapon. See, that makes lots of sense now.

I guess my point is whether it's English, or Tagalog, or Spanish, or Kenpo, the language only makes sense to the people who have learned it.


-Rob

 

[arnisandyz]

No, no, I wasn't offended at all. I'm just saying that each martial art has it's own language. You're probably right. The "code" was probably written, at least in part, to seperate the initiated from the ignorant. That's generally true of all martial arts in some fashion I think.
-Rob

Thanks for the reply. The terminolgy does/can add a philosophical aspect or deeper meaning to the technique if one takes time to listen.


Thanks

Andy

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I agree that in some cases Kenpo terminology can be used as a memory aid, but I also find that when the technique names are too similar to each other it can become very confusing, especially under the pressure to perform the techniques on a test. I used to teach young children reading, and the more similar words are in their spelling the harder it is to distinguish between them. I seem to have the most trouble remembering Kenpo techniques that are too closely named like Escape from the Storm and Escape from Darkness, or Dance of Death and Dance of Darkness, Obscure Wing and Obscure Sword. I just have to work a little harder to make my own associations to distinguish these moves. I find I have to sometimes stop and think - what does storm mean? for example, and knowing what storm represents in Kenpo helps because you then think... club, ok got it... but at least for me, and I've seen it in some of my students, these don't flow as easily as the ones that have unique names like Sumo.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Let me see if I can explain a little clearer, i was just using FMA terminology as an example because I am familiar with it, but gunting is Tagalog (a Philippine language) for scissors to decribe a scissors like motion. In Kenpo terminolgy you are speaking one language (English) and coming up with another English phase to describe it Club = Storm. While I can figure out a relationship from club to storm (storm beats down?) its not very obvious. I can see how 'scissors' = scissor like motion. As someone else stated, some are more obvious that others, and that link that Ceicei gave helps tremendously (thanks). I was just wondering why call a CLUB a STORM when you can just call it a CLUB? No disrespect intended.

In my school we call a club a club and a knife a knife.. The technique names are just a naming convention which I believe relates back to the chinese naming conventions. A chinese technique will have a name like Dragon Dances in Rain, the EPAK version might be Milking the Mongoose. Just a memory technique with a nod to chinese tradition.

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

In my school we call a club a club and a knife a knife.. The technique names are just a naming convention which I believe relates back to the chinese naming conventions. A chinese technique will have a name like Dragon Dances in Rain, the EPAK version might be Milking the Mongoose. Just a memory technique with a nod to chinese tradition.

Jeff

I happen to be a master of Milking the Mongoose style; trust me, it ain't easy! :wink2:

Sean

 

[Rainman]

In my school we call a club a club and a knife a knife.. The technique names are just a naming convention which I believe relates back to the chinese naming conventions. A chinese technique will have a name like Dragon Dances in Rain, the EPAK version might be Milking the Mongoose. Just a memory technique with a nod to chinese tradition.

Jeff

This is an AK forum. Ak has a written language that directs the phyisical manifestatioin of movement. Clutching Feathers: clutching equals a grab and feather is the hair. So no it is not just for memory, it is descriptive of the attack in this particular example.

154 techniques: Some of the technique names are attack specific, some are timing related, target related, and weapon related just to name a few ideas.

 

[Michael Billings]

The Chinese Kenpo had naming conventions when I did it:

Reference: Cobra and Mongoose (as v. Milking one), Dark Shroud, Cutting the Pagoda, etc. Others were Inward Defense, or Rear Bear Hug-Variation A or B.

In EPAK we are able to get away from the A, B, C, D, E variations. To me it is easier to remember the names than a bunch of letters. Just my personal preferance.

-Michael