Kenpo Contact Manipulation

[Doc]

Recently in another thread, "Kenpo Dark Lord" raised a point regarding "Contact Manipulation." In attempting to provoke some meaningful dialog and discussion, I asked the question, "Seeing how you brought it up, what is the definition of Contact Manipulation as you understand it?" To this point he has failed to reply but others expressed interest so rather than let it die, I further would like to know what the difference is between Contact and Control Manipulation? Although I'm aware that some of you know, I'd like to hear from others who have not had the oportunity to engage in this, (to some) Kenpo contridiction and mystery.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Recently in another thread, "Kenpo Dark Lord" raised a point regarding "Contact Manipulation." In attempting to provoke some meaningful dialog and discussion, I asked the question, "Seeing how you brought it up, what is the definition of Contact Manipulation as you understand it?" To this point he has failed to reply but others expressed interest so rather than let it die, I further would like to know what the difference is between Contact and Control Manipulation? Although I'm aware that some of you know, I'd like to hear from others who have not had the oportunity to engage in this, (to some) Kenpo contridiction and mystery.

Well Doc, now that you bring it up, you suggested that dimensional stages of action were distance related but it is possible to be at one while your opponent is at another; so , distance is only a part of the concept. I can be at contact manipulation while keeping my opponent at out of contact range simply by controling position.
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

CONTACT MANIPULATION - The fouth stage of the FOUR STAGES OF RANGE. It entails the orchestration of control, once contact is made, to contour, leverage, takedown, restrain, twist, sprain, lock, dislocate, choke, etc. to increase the effectiveness of your action. These same techniques could be used to cause greater damage or injury to you as well, therefore, making every effort to be the victor.

CONTROL MANIPULATION - To sustain control of your opponent's actions while steering or maneuvering your opponent to more suitable and strategic positions. Setting up these positions not only helps to prevent further retaliation, but allows you clear access to your opponent's targets as well.

FOUR STAGES OF RANGE - Stages of range within the "Gap", that are crucial in combat. Listed in order of proximity they are (1) OUT OF CONTACT, (2) WITHIN CONTACT, (3) CONTACT PENETRATION, and (4) CONTACT MANIPULATION.

Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo, version 1.0

 

[jfarnsworth]

I believe I'll come out of the shadows to participate and watch this thread. Thank you sir for bringing up a good topic of discussion. :asian:

Control manipulation to me would be a more hands on with an attacker where I can control them. Say maybe crossing talon or grasp of death etc. a controlling technique like that.

Contact manipulation (my opinion) is and in range type situation. Calming the strom comes to mind where after the first initial vert. punch to the face the right hand strikes the shoulder tie in joint to open him up for the left vert. punch to the sternum.

That's my opinion of the two types. :asian: Of course if I'm definately interested in learning what others think about this topic.

 

[Doc]

Well Doc, now that you bring it up, you suggested that dimensional stages of action were distance related

I don't believe I have suggested anything - yet.

but it is possible to be at one while your opponent is at another; so , distance is only a part of the concept. I can be at contact manipulation while keeping my opponent at out of contact range simply by controling position.

Actually I disgree with that as well, but as MB would say, let's stay on topic and address the questions of the thread. We can return to other thoughts later.

 

[Doc]

CONTACT MANIPULATION - The fouth stage of the FOUR STAGES OF RANGE. It entails the orchestration of control, once contact is made, to contour, leverage, takedown, restrain, twist, sprain, lock, dislocate, choke, etc. to increase the effectiveness of your action. These same techniques could be used to cause greater damage or injury to you as well, therefore, making every effort to be the victor.

CONTROL MANIPULATION - To sustain control of your opponent's actions while steering or maneuvering your opponent to more suitable and strategic positions. Setting up these positions not only helps to prevent further retaliation, but allows you clear access to your opponent's targets as well.

FOUR STAGES OF RANGE - Stages of range within the "Gap", that are crucial in combat. Listed in order of proximity they are (1) OUT OF CONTACT, (2) WITHIN CONTACT, (3) CONTACT PENETRATION, and (4) CONTACT MANIPULATION.

Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo, version 1.0

Quoting is nice, but I already knew the book definitions and probably have a copy of the Encyclopedia somewhere. However you have yet to address the questions and answer as you understand them. But for the record, those definitions will become paramount in the discussion later, and I thank you for posting them.

 

[MisterMike]

Quoting is nice, but I already knew the book definitions and probably have a copy of the Encyclopedia somewhere. However you have yet to address the questions and answer as you understand them. But for the record, those definitions will become paramount in the discussion later, and I thank you for posting them.

You're welcome. I posted them in case no-one else had access to them and to set some definitions before you guys have at it

I unfortunately do not have much to offer on the subject. They do seem to have some overlap by definition.

Contact Manipulation seems to add effectiveness to your motion while Control Manipulation is a bit more positional, to make your opponent more vulnerable while you are kept safer?

Looking forward to see where this goes...

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't believe I have suggested anything - yet.

Actually I disgree with that as well, but as MB would say, let's stay on topic and address the questions of the thread. We can return to other thoughts later.

Be that as it were. I reject the range/distance defenition, and will here by put fourth that these are stages of action. By that I mean your style of fighting changes to different types of combat. Range is a limiting term.
Sean

 

[pete]

control manipulation is adhering, while contact manipulation is chin na.

 

[sumdumguy]

Although I'm aware that some of you know, I'd like to hear from others who have not had the oportunity to engage in this, (to some) Kenpo contridiction and mystery.

You talk'n to Me Doc? Ok, I'll just watch this one and cheer you on.... :uhyeah:

:asian:

 

[Doc]

You talk'n to Me Doc? Ok, I'll just watch this one and cheer you on.... :uhyeah:

:asian:

Yeah Todd. You and I can go on this one all day.

 

[Doc]

Be that as it were. I reject the range/distance defenition, and will here by put fourth that these are stages of action. By that I mean your style of fighting changes to different types of combat. Range is a limiting term.
Sean

For the purposes of the discussion, we are adhering to what Ed Parker defined as "ranges" of combat. You may choose to reject that in favor of your own hypothesis, however I respectfully suggest that if you change Ed Parker's fundamental combat ranges, than the subject and this discussion becomes moot. Oh, and for the record whenever we get back to it, I disagree with that as well.

 

[Doc]

control manipulation is adhering, while contact manipulation is chin na.

Interesting perspective. I'm curious as to how you draw these conclusions based on Ed Parker's definitions. Could you please elaborate within American Kenpo guidelines?

When I read them, they appear to be essentially one and the same with one glaring distinction.

 

[sumdumguy]

C'mon you guys, Let's get this train roll'n..... artyon:
I know that more of you have opinions and Ideas about "contact manipulation" and "control manipulation". If you truly want to gain a greater understanding of it all, see the Doc.....
Something about ?????????
:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

C'mon you guys, Let's get this train roll'n..... artyon:
I know that more of you have opinions and Ideas about "contact manipulation" and "control manipulation". If you truly want to gain a greater understanding of it all, see the Doc.....
Something about ?????????

What about my post above? Am I on track, a little off track, or completely off track ? Maybe I'll just put my white belt back on and start all over again. :uhyeah: :asian:

 

[Doc]

C'mon you guys, Let's get this train roll'n..... artyon:
I know that more of you have opinions and Ideas about "contact manipulation" and "control manipulation". If you truly want to gain a greater understanding of it all, see the Doc.....
Something about ?????????
:asian:

So Todd, how's the weather where you are?

 

[Doc]

I believe I'll come out of the shadows to participate and watch this thread. Thank you sir for bringing up a good topic of discussion. :asian:

Control manipulation to me would be a more hands on with an attacker where I can control them. Say maybe crossing talon or grasp of death etc. a controlling technique like that.

Contact manipulation (my opinion) is and in range type situation. Calming the strom comes to mind where after the first initial vert. punch to the face the right hand strikes the shoulder tie in joint to open him up for the left vert. punch to the sternum.

That's my opinion of the two types. :asian: Of course if I'm definately interested in learning what others think about this topic.

Well Jason, not only have you stayed on point, but your understanding is pretty good. Admittedly, I might have used different examples, but you're pretty right on. But, what you say also contridicts all of the Parker definitions. Both "contact" and "control" say they control and to the same degree. Further, "control" is not even listed in the Four Ranges defined by Ed Parker. So why does it exist, and if it does in fact exist, why isn't it listed, and where does it belong? People should be careful of throwing out terminology they themselves don't understand. You're not in the shadows Jason. Too many pretend they know a lot and when they don't they change the subject. Thanks for participating. Anybody seen the "Dark Lord." Hey is he a black guy?

Haven't forgot you Sean. We'll get back to your position.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

But, what you say also contridicts all of the Parker definitions. Both "contact" and "control" say they control and to the same degree. Further, "control" is not even listed in the Four Ranges defined by Ed Parker.

Anybody seen the "Dark Lord."

QUOTE]

Hiding in plain sight as usual. You took the words right out of my mouth with that statement, I need not say more.

Dark Lord

 

[Doc]

But, what you say also contridicts all of the Parker definitions. Both "contact" and "control" say they control and to the same degree. Further, "control" is not even listed in the Four Ranges defined by Ed Parker. Anybody seen the "Dark Lord."

Hiding in plain sight as usual. You took the words right out of my mouth with that statement, ...

That statement is far from conclusive on any level.

I need not say more.

Oh please do. There were several questions that followed the statement you can elaborate on while you're "hiding in plain sight." Todd's been waiting on you to get into the discussion, and frankly so have I. Comon' show us what you got. Answer the questions, or at least give us your interpretations and what you think it means. No fair quoting the teacher without a follow-up explanation. I do teach college you know and recognize a good stall when I see one.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

That statement is far from conclusive on any level.

Oh please do. There were several questions that followed the statement you can elaborate on while you're "hiding in plain sight." Todd's been waiting on you to get into the discussion, and frankly so have I. Comon' show us what you got. Answer the questions, or at least give us your interpretations and what you think it means. No fair quoting the teacher without a follow-up explanation. I do teach college you know and recognize a good stall when I see one.

CONTACT MANIPULATION - The fouth stage of the FOUR STAGES OF RANGE. It entails the orchestration of control, once contact is made, to contour, leverage, takedown, restrain, twist, sprain, lock, dislocate, choke, etc. to increase the effectiveness of your action. These same techniques could be used to cause greater damage or injury to you as well, therefore, making every effort to be the victor.


What stall? What discussion? What answers? The definition given in II's is exactly that, it needs no further discussion to differentiate it. Frankly, I can't see why you're going on about something that's pretty cut and dry.


A Rose By Any Other Name Is Still A Rose

Dark Lord