Keeping up with grades and progression

[chrispillertkd]

I understand where you're coming from - but do you not feel you should be ready by the time you are eligible to test?

"Should" they be ready then? No, not necessarily. Time in grade requirements are minimums set by instructors or organizations so that a person has the opportunity to mature as a martial artist before being tested for their next rank. What still needs to be taken into account is a person's skill at performing the physical aspects of training, as well as their level of maturity. Different people advance at different rates. Two third dans may well take different lengths of time to reach the same level which would qualify them for fourth dan. The time in rank requirements give them a minimum amount of time to practice before being eligible to grade.

If you aren't ready by that time, have you been training with the correct focus/intensity or just showing up?

This is impossible to say one a general basis and would have to be addressed on an individual basis exactly because people advance at different rates and have different physical and mental abilities. You could well show up and put in your best effort but not develop the same ability that another person does who shows up and only puts forth a middling effort. It's similar to what goes on in education. Different students progress at different rates because they have different abilities. Mass mandatory education and the need to advance huge groups of people at the same time means that - to a certain extent - these differences in abilities will be glossed over so that people move on to the next grade when their "time is up." Martial arts are a decidedly individual practice and advancing simply because you "should" be testing or your "time is up" can run the risk of ignoring this aspect of things.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

This is impossible to say one a general basis and would have to be addressed on an individual basis exactly because people advance at different rates and have different physical and mental abilities. You could well show up and put in your best effort but not develop the same ability that another person does who shows up and only puts forth a middling effort. It's similar to what goes on in education. Different students progress at different rates because they have different abilities. Mass mandatory education and the need to advance huge groups of people at the same time means that - to a certain extent - these differences in abilities will be glossed over so that people move on to the next grade when their "time is up." Martial arts are a decidedly individual practice and advancing simply because you "should" be testing or your "time is up" can run the risk of ignoring this aspect of things.

But to use your education example, most people who attend college and graduate, did so full time, at least at the "good ones". So it probably took them around four years to get that bachelors, maybe five, and for graduate programs, they generally graduate with their classmates that they started with. There was no "getting ready to test", or weight given to people learning at different speeds, because when test time came, you showed up and took the test, or didn't and flunked out. And if you take too long, then the credits you earned expire, and you have to take those classes all over again. There is a certain momentum when training seriously, in anything, including going to school and also in the martial arts.

Another thing, when going from high school to college to graduate school, the subject matter changes, and the curriculum becomes more challenging. You are not doing the same things in grad school that you are in high school. Similarly, if a higher dan candidate is still focused on the same things and doing the same things as a 1st dan, then in my opinion, that person should not be promoted. If someone wants to stay in his/her instructor's dojang and be a non-instructor or an assistant instructor for their whole life, then they should also be satisfied with having non-instructor or assistant instructor rank, just like the person who chooses not to go to college to learn new things must be satisfied with a high school diploma only.

 

[puunui]

I would also say that rather than there being different curriculum levels, there are different expectations at each level which the person grows in to. For example, if you are a 1st/2nd Dan you may well take a warm-up, do some paddle drills, but you won't be teaching other 1st/2nd Dans new things. If you are a 4th Dan, you should be helping the 1st/2nd Dans with accuracy. I'd expect a 4th Dan to have a much higher level of technical accuracy than a 1st Dan. I'd expect a 4th Dan to be able to do any movement with power/precision, whereas I'll accept 1st/2nd Dans may have some weaker moves.

For me, a 1st or 2nd dan shouldn't be doing any teaching at all, but instead should be concentrating on improving their physical abilities. There is plenty of time to teach later, at 3rd Dan and above. 3rd Dans are the main assistant instructors, preparing for the day that they open their own dojang at 4th Dan. 4th Dans should have their own club.

 

[puunui]

To be honest I don't see much in upper belt curriculum's that really make you a better martial artist, most of it feels like padding to elongate the system, your curriculum might be different, but did learning that last kata/poomsae/form really open up new horizons of the art or was it mostly another recombination of the same basics? Me, I wanted to focus on what I already had, get really good at that material before learning something new. So I was training, and was certainly better, but did not have new material.

Sounds like you are only looking at the physical requirements of the various dan rank levels. Reminds me of the story about the son who was sent to a famous calligrapher by his father to do a calligraphy for the number 1000. So the calligrapher drew the character for one (a single horizontal line), then the character to for two (two horizontal lines), then the character for three (three horizontal lines). The calligrapher was about to draw the character for four, when the son said "Enough!". The son then went and drew 1000 horizontal lines and showed it to his father, not realizing that the character for 1000 was different.

 

[puunui]

Ha ha ha! I agree with your latter part and it's obviously different if your instructor isn't grading on time. I have the same situation with my current instructor (he's been his rank for ages), but my Grandmaster feels people should test roughly on time and should be ready for it then, if they aren't then what the hell have they been doing for 'n' years?

If one is diligently training, being exposed to and open to new things constantly, then rank comes, just like the knowledge comes. It really is that simple. The main thing is to keep learning. I've learned tons of stuff just in the last year, not so much about how to roundhouse kick, or any other physical technique really, but other things. One of the main things that I have learned is how consistent hard work truly does pay off. Seek out the best teachers (before they pass away) and put an all out effort to learn from them. Then see where you are after a few years of that.

 

[Blindside]

Sounds like you are only looking at the physical requirements of the various dan rank levels. Reminds me of the story about the son who was sent to a famous calligrapher by his father to do a calligraphy for the number 1000. So the calligrapher drew the character for one (a single horizontal line), then the character to for two (two horizontal lines), then the character for three (three horizontal lines). The calligrapher was about to draw the character for four, when the son said "Enough!". The son then went and drew 1000 horizontal lines and showed it to his father, not realizing that the character for 1000 was different.

So give me the example of what non-physical requirements are either trained for or tested by a 4th dan test that aren't by a third. And why wouldn't the third develop those traits by simply working the material they have got already?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

But to use your education example, most people who attend college and graduate, did so full time, at least at the "good ones". So it probably took them around four years to get that bachelors, maybe five, and for graduate programs, they generally graduate with their classmates that they started with. There was no "getting ready to test", or weight given to people learning at different speeds, because when test time came, you showed up and took the test, or didn't and flunked out. And if you take too long, then the credits you earned expire, and you have to take those classes all over again. There is a certain momentum when training seriously, in anything, including going to school and also in the martial arts.

Another thing, when going from high school to college to graduate school, the subject matter changes, and the curriculum becomes more challenging. You are not doing the same things in grad school that you are in high school. Similarly, if a higher dan candidate is still focused on the same things and doing the same things as a 1st dan, then in my opinion, that person should not be promoted. If someone wants to stay in his/her instructor's dojang and be a non-instructor or an assistant instructor for their whole life, then they should also be satisfied with having non-instructor or assistant instructor rank, just like the person who chooses not to go to college to learn new things must be satisfied with a high school diploma only.

Its like comparing apples to oranges. When someone goes to school/college it is most likely their livelihood, its going to pay their bills, buy food, put their kids through school etc, in the grand scheme of things a students results should be very high on their priority list. Study, research, preparing for exams and making sure they are ready to test is very important, so when the lecturer/teacher says its time to test, you test. For most people though, martial arts is a hobby and should other important things come up in a student's life they will usually just push martial arts to the side for a bit . They may still attend class and 'go through the motions', but their mind may be elsewhere. Time in grade is more of a minimum requirement, rather than an exact test date as it is with school/uni/college etc.

 

[andyjeffries]

When someone goes to school/college it is most likely their livelihood, its going to pay their bills, buy food, put their kids through school etc,

And most school/college kids I've met don't actually have any of those thoughts going through their mind. For most of them, it's just about "getting my degree, then I'll think about what next". I think you're applying mature adult thinking to college-level young adults, IME they aren't the same

So, the same applies, they test on a schedule rather than when ready (and aren't necessarily diligently working hard to get there).

 

[andyjeffries]

If one is diligently training, being exposed to and open to new things constantly, then rank comes, just like the knowledge comes. It really is that simple. The main thing is to keep learning.

That's how I feel (now), you've summed it up nicely.

 

[andyjeffries]

For me, a 1st or 2nd dan shouldn't be doing any teaching at all, but instead should be concentrating on improving their physical abilities. There is plenty of time to teach later, at 3rd Dan and above. 3rd Dans are the main assistant instructors, preparing for the day that they open their own dojang at 4th Dan. 4th Dans should have their own club.

I don't know if this is a cultural/location thing. In the UK, we only have two people of 8th Dan or above in Kukki-Taekwondo (that I know of, there are others with 8th Dan kwan rank). Over here, having a club run by a 4th Dan or above is nice/ideal, but there are lots of clubs being running by 2nd/3rd Dans (nowadays it is rarer to have clubs run by 1st Dans).

Out of interest, are you saying that instructors should get 4th Dan before opening their own club or by the time they are 4th Dan they should have a club? This relates directly to the first post in this thread.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I don't know if this is a cultural/location thing. In the UK, we only have two people of 8th Dan or above in Kukki-Taekwondo (that I know of, there are others with 8th Dan kwan rank). Over here, having a club run by a 4th Dan or above is nice/ideal, but there are lots of clubs being running by 2nd/3rd Dans (nowadays it is rarer to have clubs run by 1st Dans).

Out of interest, are you saying that instructors should get 4th Dan before opening their own club or by the time they are 4th Dan they should have a club? This relates directly to the first post in this thread.

It may be a cultural/location thing, I know of many tkd classes being run by 1st or 2nd dans in my area. Generally they teach classes for a large club but still attend advanced classes run by the GM of the club so they keep their own training up while still being able to teach full time. I know of a couple of 1st and 2nd dans around here who teach tkd as their full time job, they are usually quite good from what I hear, because with no 'day job' they spend a lot of time training and usually seem quite advanced for their rank.

 

[Cyriacus]

It may be a cultural/location thing, I know of many tkd classes being run by 1st or 2nd dans in my area. Generally they teach classes for a large club but still attend advanced classes run by the GM of the club so they keep their own training up while still being able to teach full time. I know of a couple of 1st and 2nd dans around here who teach tkd as their full time job, they are usually quite good from what I hear, because with no 'day job' they spend a lot of time training and usually seem quite advanced for their rank.

Yeah. Where I am, 1st Dan more or less marks Foundation. 2nd Dan is harder to get, and means You can Asst' Instruct. 3rd Dan is a bit harder to get, and allows You to be an Instructor. And so forth. Its Locational.

 

[chrispillertkd]

But to use your education example, most people who attend college and graduate, did so full time, at least at the "good ones". So it probably took them around four years to get that bachelors, maybe five, and for graduate programs, they generally graduate with their classmates that they started with. There was no "getting ready to test", or weight given to people learning at different speeds, because when test time came, you showed up and took the test, or didn't and flunked out. And if you take too long, then the credits you earned expire, and you have to take those classes all over again. There is a certain momentum when training seriously, in anything, including going to school and also in the martial arts.

As I said before, mandatory education forces the educational endeavor to mass produce students. People have to test all at the same time because you can't take into account individual abilities. The result of this approach can be seen in the general quality of the students that schools produce.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ralphmcpherson]

As I said before, mandatory education forces the educational endeavor to mass produce students. People have to test all at the same time because you can't take into account individual abilities. The result of this approach can be seen in the general quality of the students that schools produce.

Pax,

Chris

Good point. I remember when I first started tkd one thing that struck me as kind of odd was that you would get all these new students start training who all had very different levels of natuaral co-ordination, different levels of cardio fitness, different levels of commitment etc, yet they would all graade together at set grading intervals. You would get some guy who has done no physical exercise in 20 years, is over weight, was not very 'sporty', and viewed tkd as nothing more than a bit of a hobby on the side and they would progress at the same rate as some other guy they started with who is in peak physical shape, trains regularly is his own time and is a natuarally gifted athlete. Ive grown to accept it these days and not really question it, but it still makes no sense to me at all because if those same two guys joined a tennis club, for instance, they would not progress at the same rate, one would still be in the 'beginners' section a lot longer than the other, and if they started playing tournaments one would play in a lower grade than the other.

 

[sopraisso]

Dear Andy (and others),

I'm not an instructor, but I'm dropping my opinion on this and I hope it's worth reading. I believe I also can represent the other side of the situation, as I still as my GM has slightly pushed me to do the last 3 grading tests (did all in the end), altough I always feel I could wait a little more to be more prepared and show a better result, like others already have stated here.

For the speciphic issue you've (Andy) brought of your student who, from what I have understood:
1) wants to be a instructor at his own club;
2) he truely ready for the testing, not just merely has reached the minimum time for the testings.

I think you have enough reasons to talk to him and encourage him to do the testings. I'd say even push him somehow. Because this is according with the student's intents (to run his own school). I believe it's hard to feel secure when we're about to reach such level, not matter this is considered as a high dan or not. So maybe he could even be needing you to help him make the next step.
Anyway, well, I don't know about Kukkiwon dan testing fees, but, if it's expensive, maybe you should make sure he doesn't have a mere finantial problem, wich could be preventing him from going forward. Any chances this could be?

As for a general case, I believe pushing or not a student depends so much on the student's intentions for the martial art. I, for example, want to reach black belt (I haven't yet), but I don't feel sure about going over 1st dan, because I don't plan to have a school or stuff like that (I already have other way to make a living). Besides, here in Brazil dan testing fees are way too expensive, so maybe I would just stop testing after 1st or 2nd dan, simply because I wouldn't have a reason strong enough to spend such a big ammount of money (I even plan to talk about this in a future thread). But it would be totally different once I decided to have my own dojang, or if I win the lottery.

No matter the situation, I believe after trying to convince the student for a while and not having a response, it may feel uncomfortable to keep on doing it, and maybe after all the student had enough reason not to test, what should be respected. But nonetheless it's never too much to remind the person when the time for testings is coming again.

And as for showing off in the grading exams... today I believe the exam is just one day, one single moment, and don't necessarily represent how well you have learned about your current curriculum. All in all, we gotta be careful not to be victims of our own vanity.

Lastly, I would like to say that although my GM really pushed me a little to do my last three testings -- what made me feel uncomfortable --, I've already seen him denying some other people to make their desired exams, because those weren't ready. Since then I've come to believe he wouldn't let someone go ahead, unless that person were truely ready. Today I feel ok to go further as soon as he says it's okay, and I feel honoured if he says so before the time I was expecting that.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Dear Andy (and others),

I'm not an instructor, but I'm dropping my opinion on this and I hope it's worth reading. I believe I also can represent the other side of the situation, as I still as my GM has slightly pushed me to do the last 3 grading tests (did all in the end), altough I always feel I could wait a little more to be more prepared and show a better result, like others already have stated here.

For the speciphic issue you've (Andy) brought of your student who, from what I have understood:
1) wants to be a instructor at his own club;
2) he truely ready for the testing, not just merely has reached the minimum time for the testings.

I think you have enough reasons to talk to him and encourage him to do the testings. I'd say even push him somehow. Because this is according with the student's intents (to run his own school). I believe it's hard to feel secure when we're about to reach such level, not matter this is considered as a high dan or not. So maybe he could even be needing you to help him make the next step.
Anyway, well, I don't know about Kukkiwon dan testing fees, but, if it's expensive, maybe you should make sure he doesn't have a mere finantial problem, wich could be preventing him from going forward. Any chances this could be?

As for a general case, I believe pushing or not a student depends so much on the student's intentions for the martial art. I, for example, want to reach black belt (I haven't yet), but I don't feel sure about going over 1st dan, because I don't plan to have a school or stuff like that (I already have other way to make a living). Besides, here in Brazil dan testing fees are way too expensive, so maybe I would just stop testing after 1st or 2nd dan, simply because I wouldn't have a reason strong enough to spend such a big ammount of money (I even plan to talk about this in a future thread). But it would be totally different once I decided to have my own dojang, or if I win the lottery.

No matter the situation, I believe after trying to convince the student for a while and not having a response, it may feel uncomfortable to keep on doing it, and maybe after all the student had enough reason not to test, what should be respected. But nonetheless it's never too much to remind the person when the time for testings is coming again.

And as for showing off in the grading exams... today I believe the exam is just one day, one single moment, and don't necessarily represent how well you have learned about your current curriculum. All in all, we gotta be careful not to be victims of our own vanity.

Lastly, I would like to say that although my GM really pushed me a little to do my last three testings -- what made me feel uncomfortable --, I've already seen him denying some other people to make their desired exams, because those weren't ready. Since then I've come to believe he wouldn't let someone go ahead, unless that person were truely ready. Today I feel ok to go further as soon as he says it's okay, and I feel honoured if he says so before the time I was expecting that.

Good post, but I dont think anyone has spoken of "showing off" in the grading exams. I dont think that someone going out there and wanting to absolutely nail the test as best as possible and being the best on the floor is 'showing off'. Grading is a chance for the student to demonstrate to the GM and all their seniors how well they can demonstrate the material, and I have no problem with a student wanting to achieve way beyond "the minimum standard required". Its a shame to hear that testing fees are so expensive there, its sad to hear that some people have to factor cost into whether or not to grade.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Good point. I remember when I first started tkd one thing that struck me as kind of odd was that you would get all these new students start training who all had very different levels of natuaral co-ordination, different levels of cardio fitness, different levels of commitment etc, yet they would all graade together at set grading intervals....

I think it is all about not hurting anyone's feelings, particular with kids in the same family. Now if the test were to have firm requirements (e.g., a REQUIREMENT to break a thick board with a side-kick with a maximum of 3 tries) and people failed, then people would have to test at different times.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think it is all about not hurting anyone's feelings, particular with kids in the same family. Now if the test were to have firm requirements (e.g., a REQUIREMENT to break a thick board with a side-kick with a maximum of 3 tries) and people failed, then people would have to test at different times.

I believe thats how it should be. If I put my kids into any other sport, whether it be swimming, golf, tennis, squash etc I would just assume that they would progress at different rates. Its funny that in martial arts people dont see it this way. Fortunately where we train we do it the way you just suggested, you do a timber break, sparring, form and self defence. You fail any of them and bad luck, try again next grading. Both my kids are doing tkd and are progressing at different rates,and as a parent I have no problem with that.

 

[andyjeffries]

Ive grown to accept it these days and not really question it, but it still makes no sense to me at all because if those same two guys joined a tennis club, for instance, they would not progress at the same rate, one would still be in the 'beginners' section a lot longer than the other, and if they started playing tournaments one would play in a lower grade than the other.

And the big difference for me is that Taekwondo isn't a pure sport. It's a martial art and a vehicle for self-growth. If they have both progressed, they should both move through the ranks. The athletic one can prove his expertise in athletic endeavours such as competition.

While there are standards that have to be upheld, the Kukkiwon allows for a passmark that can be achieved by most people with some effort, rather than only by the elite.

 

[andyjeffries]

I believe thats how it should be. If I put my kids into any other sport, whether it be swimming, golf, tennis, squash etc I would just assume that they would progress at different rates. Its funny that in martial arts people dont see it this way.

Because it's a martial art not a sport. People do still progress at a different rate, and there are certain objective levels for each rank, but the they aren't that stringent that most people can't achieve them if they work hard.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't promote someone "on time" if they were lazy, but if they trained hard over that time but weren't as good as another student, that's no reason to hold them back.

Fortunately where we train we do it the way you just suggested, you do a timber break, sparring, form and self defence. You fail any of them and bad luck, try again next grading. Both my kids are doing tkd and are progressing at different rates,and as a parent I have no problem with that.

I do disagree that failing to break a board (or multiple boards, whatever) is a reason to fail. If the student executes good technique, with a clear focus and as hard as they can, then that's a pass - you may take a few marks off for failing to break, but it shouldn't be an instant failure. This goes back to my reason above. The person may be generally weak or they may have an injury that causes them to hold back from going through the board. If their technique is good and they are generally good, why fail them for one minor point.