Keeping up with grades and progression

[ralphmcpherson]

Because it's a martial art not a sport. People do still progress at a different rate, and there are certain objective levels for each rank, but the they aren't that stringent that most people can't achieve them if they work hard.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't promote someone "on time" if they were lazy, but if they trained hard over that time but weren't as good as another student, that's no reason to hold them back.



I do disagree that failing to break a board (or multiple boards, whatever) is a reason to fail. If the student executes good technique, with a clear focus and as hard as they can, then that's a pass - you may take a few marks off for failing to break, but it shouldn't be an instant failure. This goes back to my reason above. The person may be generally weak or they may have an injury that causes them to hold back from going through the board. If their technique is good and they are generally good, why fail them for one minor point.

I would hope that if someone executes good technique, with clear focus and as hard as they can, then the timber should break. I wouldnt expect a child, for instance to break a thick piece of timber, they would have a thin piece. If a kid has had 3-4 months of working hard on a kick and still cant break a piece of thin timber then that would tell me that a bit longer in that grade may not be a bad thing. We are encouraged not to grade if injured, so I wouldnt see injury as a good excuse for not breaking. But hey, all schools are unique in these things and from one school to another the expectations differ.

 

[andyjeffries]

I'm not an instructor, but I'm dropping my opinion on this and I hope it's worth reading

Absolutely! I may not agree with it, but I always want to hear what people think!

I believe I also can represent the other side of the situation, as I still as my GM has slightly pushed me to do the last 3 grading tests (did all in the end), altough I always feel I could wait a little more to be more prepared and show a better result, like others already have stated here.

The thing to remember here is that you could always "wait a little more to be more prepared and show a better result". If people didn't improve with time, there'd be no point in having more than one rank. At the point your GM feels you are consistently above the level you're testing for he tells you. There's not really any point in you waiting any longer, you're just wasting time. Your skill is at the level you're recommended for so your rank should match (otherwise you're spending time at the same rank and not progressing, as I said before you may not learn many new techniques as you progress higher in rank, but expectations change so growth is still a major part of the process).

For the speciphic issue you've (Andy) brought of your student who, from what I have understood:
1) wants to be a instructor at his own club;
2) he truely ready for the testing, not just merely has reached the minimum time for the testings.

This is where I think I may have confused things. This is two years away from happening. He isn't ready yet. My point to him (and in general) is that I want him to focus on the fact that he has two years to prepare and what do we need to do to get him ready in that timeframe. Rather than wait two years until he's time eligible then start preparing him for his test (and take another couple of years).

Anyway, well, I don't know about Kukkiwon dan testing fees, but, if it's expensive, maybe you should make sure he doesn't have a mere finantial problem, wich could be preventing him from going forward. Any chances this could be?

While I'm not intimately aware of his finances, I know he's doing pretty well for himself. The Kukkiwon fee for 4th Dan is $150 and I wouldn't charge him to test him, so the cost is fairly negligible.

As for a general case, I believe pushing or not a student depends so much on the student's intentions for the martial art. I, for example, want to reach black belt (I haven't yet), but I don't feel sure about going over 1st dan, because I don't plan to have a school or stuff like that (I already have other way to make a living). Besides, here in Brazil dan testing fees are way too expensive, so maybe I would just stop testing after 1st or 2nd dan, simply because I wouldn't have a reason strong enough to spend such a big ammount of money (I even plan to talk about this in a future thread). But it would be totally different once I decided to have my own dojang, or if I win the lottery.

It's a shame to her that your testing fees are prohibitive, that's completely against my thinking in Taekwondo (that it's for everyone).

No matter the situation, I believe after trying to convince the student for a while and not having a response, it may feel uncomfortable to keep on doing it, and maybe after all the student had enough reason not to test, what should be respected. But nonetheless it's never too much to remind the person when the time for testings is coming again.

Agreed.

Lastly, I would like to say that although my GM really pushed me a little to do my last three testings -- what made me feel uncomfortable --, I've already seen him denying some other people to make their desired exams, because those weren't ready. Since then I've come to believe he wouldn't let someone go ahead, unless that person were truely ready. Today I feel ok to go further as soon as he says it's okay, and I feel honoured if he says so before the time I was expecting that.

That's my point, if they say you are ready you have to trust their judgement. If you think they're testing you for the money - go elsewhere. If you think they want you to test so that can explicitly fail you and embarrass you - go elsewhere. If you have a decent master/grandmaster and they say you're ready, why insulte them by second guessing them when they know more than you?

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[chrispillertkd]

While there are standards that have to be upheld, the Kukkiwon allows for a passmark that can be achieved by most people with some effort, rather than only by the elite.

I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

Pax,

Chris

 

[sopraisso]

Good post, but I dont think anyone has spoken of "showing off" in the grading exams. I dont think that someone going out there and wanting to absolutely nail the test as best as possible and being the best on the floor is 'showing off'. Grading is a chance for the student to demonstrate to the GM and all their seniors how well they can demonstrate the material, and I have no problem with a student wanting to achieve way beyond "the minimum standard required". Its a shame to hear that testing fees are so expensive there, its sad to hear that some people have to factor cost into whether or not to grade.

Thanks for your response.
I did felt unsure about the meaning of "showing off", but was just too lazy to check for the word reference (English is not my native language). Actually, for "as showing off in the grading exams" I wanted to say "as showing/presenting a perfect performance" (not necessarilly with intent of impressing others). I really didn't want to mean "showing off", and the mistake came from lazyness and inadequate use of the expression.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is I believe sometimes we're just too perfectionist. I believe most people here understand what I mean and may even feel like that sometimes (I myself do). So maybe sometimes the student is already prepared to do the testings, but because of being too perfectionist, he/she just refuses, wanting to do it only when feeling perfectly ready. Despite of my wrong use of the expression "show off", in most cases this student really wants to "prove" something, but to no other person than himself/herself. It may also be related to setting personal goals above what's seen as average ones. I think this may be a common situation.

The point is there shouldn't be such a necessity for the student to be at 100% when doing the exams, because: 1) maximum grade is not necessary to pass; 2) a performance "below excellent" doesn't mean the student is ordinary. After all, the day of testing is just one more day, and the instructor should probably already know whether the student can do it or not, and somehow has already approved him/her after seeing what's already shown in classes. Besides, the performance in the test won't mark the student, like there wouldn't be any improvement after that. This issue I believe is more likely to happen between coloured belts (like mine), but maybe sometimes black belts can pass through it, mainly when is a young black belt. This could be a reason, among other reasons, for some people not wanting to test as soon as there's enough time already and off course, a reasonable absortion of the required curriculum. Understanding this, to me, is something new and it was necessary to make me accept more easily when my GM tells me I'm ready to do the next examinations.

 

[sopraisso]

This is where I think I may have confused things. This is two years away from happening. He isn't ready yet. My point to him (and in general) is that I want him to focus on the fact that he has two years to prepare and what do we need to do to get him ready in that timeframe. Rather than wait two years until he's time eligible then start preparing him for his test (and take another couple of years).

Hey! So I think you're doing him a big favour, and to anyone who's in same situation. To me it's not simply a case of pushing the student, but reminding about the responsibility that's ahead, and motivating him to get ready to advance when the time comes. Once taekwondo and martial arts demand self-improvement, your sudent will have to keep on making an effort, and you'll be reminding him about this, so when the time comes he won't be catched by surprise after a bad preparation in two years.

While I'm not intimately aware of his finances, I know he's doing pretty well for himself. The Kukkiwon fee for 4th Dan is $150 and I wouldn't charge him to test him, so the cost is fairly negligible.

It's a shame to her that your testing fees are prohibitive, that's completely against my thinking in Taekwondo (that it's for everyone).

Haha. I don't even want to tell you how much they ask us to pay here. Actually, I just few deeply embarrased. There's a whole problem that's been criticized in my country, but hasn't changed yet. I'm planning to start a thread about this. However, it's just such a marsh field I feel not safe to discuss it! Let's move on now and maybe I bring it back later in a well-thinked thread.

That's my point, if they say you are ready you have to trust their judgement. If you think they're testing you for the money - go elsewhere. If you think they want you to test so that can explicitly fail you and embarrass you - go elsewhere. If you have a decent master/grandmaster and they say you're ready, why insulte them by second guessing them when they know more than you?

Thanks for your thoughts!

You're welcome.
It took me a little time to feel secure and trust my GM's judgement. You have cited important issues that I could think of when feeling kind of pushed to do the test, and you've presented the solution. Now I'm fine, and thinking about it in this very thread helped me become even more confident. Thank you, too!

 

[puunui]

As I said before, mandatory education forces the educational endeavor to mass produce students. People have to test all at the same time because you can't take into account individual abilities. The result of this approach can be seen in the general quality of the students that schools produce.

I don't get what you are trying to say. What is wrong with mass producing students? Harvard does it, and so does Yale. Individual abilities get taken into by the fact that different students get different grades. As for the general quality of the students that the schools produce, that really goes to the quality of the students and the teachers, and not so much about the fact that students are being mass produced.

 

[puunui]

It may be a cultural/location thing, I know of many tkd classes being run by 1st or 2nd dans in my area. Generally they teach classes for a large club but still attend advanced classes run by the GM of the club so they keep their own training up while still being able to teach full time. I know of a couple of 1st and 2nd dans around here who teach tkd as their full time job, they are usually quite good from what I hear, because with no 'day job' they spend a lot of time training and usually seem quite advanced for their rank.

I think classes led by a 1st or 2nd Dan is less than ideal. 1st or 2nd Dans should be primarily learning, not teaching.

 

[puunui]

Absolutely! I may not agree with it, but I always want to hear what people think!

I want to hear what people think, but more importantly, I want to hear why they think the way they do.

 

[puunui]

That's my point, if they say you are ready you have to trust their judgement. If you think they're testing you for the money - go elsewhere. If you think they want you to test so that can explicitly fail you and embarrass you - go elsewhere. If you have a decent master/grandmaster and they say you're ready, why insulte them by second guessing them when they know more than you?

I think that is one of the differences between yesterday and today. Yesterday, we trusted our instructors and did what they asked of us. Today, people refuse if they don't want to do something, for whatever reason.

 

[sopraisso]

I think classes led by a 1st or 2nd Dan is less than ideal. 1st or 2nd Dans should be primarily learning, not teaching.

I agree with you. 1st and even 2nd dans to me are just in the beginning of the road. I believe most people here agree with this. Although black belt for the general public has such a mystic meaning, I believe at times it's needed much more for a person to be able to adequately teach.

By the way, one of the reasons I many times felt unsure about doing grading tests "fast" (every 3 months, up to now) is exactly that I noticed I would get to black belt too early in this pace (less than 3 years), when I thought in the beginning it was needed a minimum of 4 or 5 years to graduate a black belt. Even if it's not the case (and I accept this), I wouldn't like to be teached by someone who's been training for, say, 2 years and a half, or even much more, say, 5 years.

I do believe 1st and 2nd dans should primarily be learning, maybe giving some help to the teacher, but without losing focus on learning mainly.

This to me brings up other question wich is: with the advent of mcdojos, do anyone think in any aspect the significance of a black belt -- even the ones formed by a serious school -- has been decreased over the years?

I think that is one of the differences between yesterday and today. Yesterday, we trusted our instructors and did what they asked of us. Today, people refuse if they don't want to do something, for whatever reason.

Maybe my question above could be related to the phenomenon you describe. Couldn't the lack of confidence from students in teachers today be caused, at least partially, by the perception (even public) of a current lower standard in the education of teachers, or by the very existence of mcdojos?

 

[chrispillertkd]

I don't get what you are trying to say. What is wrong with mass producing students? Harvard does it, and so does Yale. Individual abilities get taken into by the fact that different students get different grades. As for the general quality of the students that the schools produce, that really goes to the quality of the students and the teachers, and not so much about the fact that students are being mass produced.

If you are happy with the quality of students that mass education produces then more power to you. My experience teaching at a university showed me first hand that it is seriously lacking in producing good students.

Pax,

Chris

 

[masterchase]

Ten years ago our association added to our policy and procedure manual the following:
Policy:

1. In order to open an all new Dojang, the student must make a written request to the executive board via the association President. Location of the new Dojang, attitude, and attendance to association events will factor heavily into the decision. Dojangs affiliated with the BWA will be operated by a Kukkiwon and Chungdokwan certified 3rd Dan or higher black belt.

Personally I started teaching at 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Dan long before this was policy. Thinking back on it, I wish I had remained a student until 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] Dan. I would have benefited with more training without having to instruct.

 

[miguksaram]

I don't get what you are trying to say. What is wrong with mass producing students? Harvard does it, and so does Yale. Individual abilities get taken into by the fact that different students get different grades.

This reminds me of the saying "What do you call the man who finished dead last in his class in medical school?......Doctor."

 

[miguksaram]

I think classes led by a 1st or 2nd Dan is less than ideal. 1st or 2nd Dans should be primarily learning, not teaching.

While I believe the 1st and 2nd dans should spend a good majority of their time learning, I also believe that teaching does add to the learning process. Through seeing the mistakes of others I have been more aware of my own short comings. Likewise when I was presented with a question that I did not know the answer to or that I never thought to ask myself, it has educated me to go and find the answer.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I agree with you. 1st and even 2nd dans to me are just in the beginning of the road. I believe most people here agree with this. Although black belt for the general public has such a mystic meaning, I believe at times it's needed much more for a person to be able to adequately teach.

I think the black belt is overrated, in the sense that the person makes a much bigger difference than the belt. As an analogy, I think a top student in 9th grade could teach 9th grade algebra much better than a poor 12th grade student. I myself asked a green belt to teach my some things. He had spent 8 years in another martial art and the fact that he was lower than me in TKD made no difference When I asked him to show me a tornado kick, he showed a basic version, discussed the footwork, then showed variations moving forwards, staying in place, and moving backwards. To me it all depends on the person's natural abilitiy plus his/her concentrated and constructive practice, as opposed to the belt. I judge the person by what he/she can do and explain, and I look past the belt.