Kata X Dai and Sho

[Black/Red Block]

All

I have a question and as I don't practice "traditional" martial arts I'm looking to you guys to give me the answers.

We have various Kata that are practiced that have a "Dai" & a "Sho" variant to the Kata. What is the reason for this, are they completely different Kata or 2 Kata created from one major Kata.

The Kata that follow this concept that come to mind are:

Bassai Dai & Bassai Sho
Kanku Dai & Kanku Sho
Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho

And Albeit a few others that some could add themselves

Thanks

 

[dancingalone]

There is no real definitive answer with full historical documentation. All we have are legends passed down through oral history that were later written down - some of the stories conflict with each other.

Certainly the Dai and Sho versions of each kata are related in some way. They share techniques and often entire sequences of motion so the kinship is very recognizable to those who know what they are seeing. It is possible they were created by the same author, or they shared inspiration from the same root kata. For example, it is said Itosu Sensei learned a cognate Kusanku form that he broke up and modified to create Kusanku Dai, Kusanku Sho, and a lost kata called Shio Kusanku.

Most karate styles I am familiar with teach the Dai versions before the Sho and some feel the Sho kata are supposed to be more 'advanced'.

 

[Grenadier]

Bassai Dai & Bassai Sho
Kanku Dai & Kanku Sho
Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho

And Albeit a few others that some could add themselves

Thanks

Sometimes, as dancingalone well-stated, a different version of the kata is created from the original.

Before I continue, I refer to the Gojushiho Dai as the one with the ippon nukite (one finger spear) and neko dachi (cat stance) in it, and refer to Gojushiho Sho as the one with more kokutsu dachi (back stance) and 5 finger spear hand, since some organizations switch names. That's a discussion for later, of course...

Gojushiho Sho is a somewhat modified version of Gojushiho Dai, where Sho was created from Dai directly, but with a greater emphasis on power. Thus, Gojushiho Dai is more of a finesse kata, instead of a power kata. Which is more difficult? I'd give a small edge to the Dai version, since it's more demanding to remain in cat stance for that length of time, and there's a smaller margin of error when performing this kata. Most competitors prefer the Sho version, since it's a safer choice.

Nevertheless, both kata are quite advanced level ones.

Dai is usually taught after Sho, although those who know both will generally stick to one or the other, since it can get confusing.

As for Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho, Bassai Sho is more of a finesse kata, while Bassai Dai has more of an emphasis on power. In this case, Sho is usually taught after Dai.

 

[Black/Red Block]

Wastelander, A Good Friend from a Sister Thread wrote

As I understand it, Sho and Dai variants of kata are typically just different versions of the same kata as taught by different people. As an example, in his Butoku essay, Chibana Chosin (founder of Shorin-Ryu) wrote the following:

[TABLE="width: 90%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Chibana Chosin wrote:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: quote"]I remember learning the kata Tadawa no Patsai (Passai/Bassai) from Tawada Sensei. At the time I was receiving instruction from Itosu and he, too, taught a version of Patsai kata which he called Matsumura no Patsai, which I learned. In 1913 or 1914, having practiced the Tawada no Patsai with all my heart, as was the custom back then, I approached Itosu and advised him of this. He asked me to demonstrate the kata for him. I did and Itosu then stated to me that was the finest performance of this rarely seen form that he had ever witnessed. He then told me that this form mut be preserved and passed on to future generations and to add it to his (my) teachings. So the Matsumura no Patsai is now called Patsai no Sho and the Tawada no Patsai is called Patsai no Dai.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Tez3]

I see this thread is duplicated on Iain Abernethy's site, word for word :wink:

 

[Black/Red Block]

I see this thread is duplicated on Iain Abernethy's site, word for word :wink:

That is correct and a few other forums I am on?

Do you wish to reply or just make this point?

 

[Tez3]

That is correct and a few other forums I am on?

Do you wish to reply or just make this point?

Hey don't get a strop on! there's no need to be bad tempered, this isn't that sort of place, it's just amusing that you would pepper the internet martial arts forums with exactly the same worded question. It would have been nice if you have worded each one a bit differently out of respect for the individual members. Is it that you want a concensus of views or you just like posting?

 

[Grenadier]

Nothing wrong with bringing productive conversations in from other discussion boards. Each board is populated with a different population, and I suspect that the variety can give a different viewpoint at times. Think of it as the fisherman who casts out multiple lines.

As long as the fisherman is fishing in respectable waters, and not some cesspool, of course.

 

[Tez3]

Nothing wrong with bringing productive conversations in from other discussion boards. Each board is populated with a different population, and I suspect that the variety can give a different viewpoint at times. Think of it as the fisherman who casts out multiple lines.

As long as the fisherman is fishing in respectable waters, and not some cesspool, of course.

There isn't anything wrong it's just that the exactly the same replies are made on each site there's no discussion from the OP, just the same answers so there's no individual interaction. It's just a bit disappointing that's all to have constant deja vu.

 

[Black/Red Block]

There isn't anything wrong it's just that the exactly the same replies are made on each site there's no discussion from the OP, just the same answers so there's no individual interaction. It's just a bit disappointing that's all to have constant deja vu.

Actually, I've had a varying amount of responses from various people its only YOU who has the problem, what's up Catterick too boring for you? Nothing more deja vu than seeing the same barrack walls. and everyone wearing green!

I used to like the Sergeant's Mess there. I'm ex RAF/Cheshire's/Mercian Regiment

I had an Army Karate Team Black belt come to my Dojo a few years back, she couldn't cope with the sparring and never returned, too many bruises, given to her by my Kyu grades

 

[Grenadier]

Come on, folks, let's get back to the topic of Karate kata, OK?

 

[Tez3]

Actually, I've had a varying amount of responses from various people its only YOU who has the problem, what's up Catterick too boring for you? Nothing more deja vu than seeing the same barrack walls. and everyone wearing green!

I used to like the Sergeant's Mess there. I'm ex RAF/Cheshire's/Mercian Regiment

I had an Army Karate Team Black belt come to my Dojo a few years back, she couldn't cope with the sparring and never returned, too many bruises, given to her by my Kyu grades

Yep that'll be me, the one with the problem roflmao! But at least I'm never boring!! I could add that I'm not the one with the 'red' rep lol. If you have been at Catterick you'll know there are quite a few WO and Sgts messes here not just one and also the army doesn't wear green anymore. I'm not army, never have been. I do know the Mercians quite well though and the RAF very well. The Mercians are on their way to Afghan and hopefully will have a better tour than the last which was a bad one for deaths and casualties. In a couple of weeks the whole brigade will be out there including most of our MMA club.
I can't see what having an Army BB coming to your dojo has to do with anything tbh. She wouldn't have been anything to do with us unless she was posing as an MMA fighter.
Perhaps you will prove not to be a troll, I hope so.

 

[Black/Red Block]

yep that'll be me, the one with the problem roflmao! But at least i'm never boring!! I could add that i'm not the one with the 'red' rep lol. If you have been at catterick you'll know there are quite a few wo and sgts messes here not just one and also the army doesn't wear green anymore. I'm not army, never have been. I do know the mercians quite well though and the raf very well. The mercians are on their way to afghan and hopefully will have a better tour than the last which was a bad one for deaths and casualties. In a couple of weeks the whole brigade will be out there including most of our mma club.
I can't see what having an army bb coming to your dojo has to do with anything tbh. She wouldn't have been anything to do with us unless she was posing as an mma fighter.
Perhaps you will prove not to be a troll, i hope so.

i don't give a crap about the red rep, i actually have a life outside this forum.

You do tang soo, the biggest belt factory in the world, with a made up 2000 year old history

mma, i've had a few in my dojo that came once but couldn't keep the pace, try kudo or daito juku if you want real mma.

Anyone tried a 100 man kumite, bet nobody especially you tez would be man enough for it.

And i don't lie, but you are just having a go because you feel because you got 14000 posts you have a right too!!!!

Strange thing is not met any full contact karate people on here and that's my only reason for staying on this forum. Other styles of tippy tappy bouncy bouncy karate is a waste of time

 

[Tez3]

i don't give a crap about the red rep, i actually have a life outside this forum.

You do tang soo, the biggest belt factory in the world, with a made up 2000 year old history

mma, i've had a few in my dojo that came once but couldn't keep the pace, try kudo or daito juku if you want real mma.

Anyone tried a 100 man kumite, bet nobody especially you tez would be man enough for it.

And i don't lie, but you are just having a go because you feel because you got 14000 posts you have a right too!!!!

Strange thing is not met any full contact karate people on here and that's my only reason for staying on this forum. Other styles of tippy tappy bouncy bouncy karate is a waste of time

I don't do TSD with any organisation and we only teach the children, our last grading for them was two years ago. The adults do MMA which is our main focus. We do martial arts for kids because it's part of helping the children here who's parents are away on deployment.

I'm not having a go, I'm pointing out that you posted the same OP on other sites, fair enough good idea to get ideas back but you have also posted the same responses on all of them therefore not having a conversation. If you put your own comments to carry on the threads that would be cool.

Am I man enough for a 100 man kumite, I very much doubt I will be 'man' enough for anything roflmao!

 

[ballen0351]

i don't give a crap about the red rep, i actually have a life outside this forum.

You do tang soo, the biggest belt factory in the world, with a made up 2000 year old history

mma, i've had a few in my dojo that came once but couldn't keep the pace, try kudo or daito juku if you want real mma.

Anyone tried a 100 man kumite, bet nobody especially you tez would be man enough for it.

And i don't lie, but you are just having a go because you feel because you got 14000 posts you have a right too!!!!

Strange thing is not met any full contact karate people on here and that's my only reason for staying on this forum. Other styles of tippy tappy bouncy bouncy karate is a waste of time

I'll see your 100 man kumate and raise you I once hit 105 bars in a weekend now are You man enough for that. It was the bar craw to end all bar crawls.

Oh and as for full contact karate that's for sissy's I live a full contact life.

 

[Tez3]

You've got to love a 'my style is better than your style' thread drift. :duh:

 

[SuperFLY]

wow.. black/red block really has a chip on his shoulder.

I had an Army Karate Team Black belt come to my Dojo a few years back, she couldn't cope with the sparring and never returned, too many bruises, given to her by my Kyu grades

perhaps your kyu grades need to learn some control then.

tez hasnt said anything to warrant your replies.. seems like you just wanted to start a fight with someone.

in all martial arts there is fundamental respect.. might be time to bring some back to this thread.. what do you say?

/on topic

Dai is usually taught after Sho, although those who know both will generally stick to one or the other, since it can get confusing.

interestingly its the other way round for our club.

i did Bassai Dai, for my brown belt yet i wont do Bassai Sho until my sandan. Kankudai is part of my black belt grading and Kankusho is part of the Nidan.

i must admit i've not looked at them yet so i dont know the differences; couldnt tell you why its that way round for us

 

[Tez3]

When I was doing Wado we just did 'Bassai' and 'Kushanku', it wasn't until discussing it with my present instrucutor who came from Shotokan that I realised that people have more than one 'Bassai'. In Wado both Bassai and Kushanku were for the brown belts ( they have three) with Naihanchi being for 1st Dan.

 

[MJS]

Admin Note:

Keep the discussion on a civil level please. Stop the personal shots/attacks. If you have a problem with a member, put them on ignore.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

The dai and the sho versions of kata were really split from one major kata because more templates were later added. I am just guessing. The dai form is most likely the one big standalone form, while the sho form is most likely newly formed principles from the original kata. Furthermore, there are katas like Naihanchi when it had one kata, now it is split into three Naihanchi/Tekki forms and Rohai/Mekyo split into three forms.