Kata and Okinawan Folk Dancing

[Makalakumu]

One of the things I started learning about when I moved to Hawaii was Hula and Lua. My wife and daughter are part of a halau and regularly dance, and I'm part of a dojo that incorporated Lua into the system. They don't teach real Lua to haoles out here. It turns out that the connection between the two arts is more then cultural, it's technical. A lua practitioner starts with hula to learn footwork, hip movement, and body control. They also learn the basic esoteric principles associated with the martial art through the practice of hula.

This got me thinking about karate and Okinawan Folk Dancing. Rob Redmond wrote a book, Kata: The Folk Dances of Shotokan, so this isn't a new idea. Here's an example of an Okinawan Folk Dance that I found.

I can see lots of cross over movements in this dance.

This one is labeled as a Folk Dance, but it looks like a bo kata to me.

So, how deep is the connection? Is the connection cultural in the sense that they resemble each other because of the shared culture, or is their an actual technical connection between the two like the connection between Hula and Lua.

 

[Tez3]

I believe the word kata is not a specific martial arts word but is a general word used for movements, geishas practice katas for their dances. I don't see any resemblance in the first video to martial arts kata, it resembles a lot of Asian dances however, movements from India, Nepal, Thailand etc. I think if you wanted to, you could find movements that could be from martial arts in many differnet types of dance if you really tried.

 

[Makalakumu]

I believe the word kata is not a specific martial arts word but is a general word used for movements, geishas practice katas for their dances. I don't see any resemblance in the first video to martial arts kata, it resembles a lot of Asian dances however, movements from India, Nepal, Thailand etc. I think if you wanted to, you could find movements that could be from martial arts in many differnet types of dance if you really tried.

I thought the same, but then someone showed me how hula and lua are related and now whenever my daughter dances, I can see the relationship between footwork and the hip movements. From what I've been able to find out, I think it has something to do with how the dance is interpreted. I don't know much, though, so I'm hoping someone may chime in with some more specific knowledge.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I believe that it is a connection between the Hawaiian Martial Arts and the Japanese Martial Arts. The natives in both countries use dance routines to hide their dangerous techniques. It could be date back to the ancients while deveolping fighting systems for military purposes. Furthermore Africans and Polynesians practice the war dance to prepare themselves for battle and to intimidate their enemies. Every culture shares customs in folk and war dance.

 

[Makalakumu]

Then the key is in how we interpret the dance. We may not necessarily be using the moves in the dance directly in combat. The moves in the dance are meant to help us remember and pass on knowledge about larger and more complicated concepts. Thoughts?

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Then the key is in how we interpret the dance. We may not necessarily be using the moves in the dance directly in combat. The moves in the dance are meant to help us remember and pass on knowledge about larger and more complicated concepts. Thoughts?

That is very true. Also dance moves such as one Martial Art style Capoeira was meant to mask the moves so that their slave masters wouldn't recognize that the slaves are actually practicing Martial Arts with each other. Dance rituals can be related to exercise drills, shadow boxing and Forms (Kata). At least in a way all these single person drills have one thing in common and that is to record and remember effective fighting techniques to pass on these concepts from teacher to student.

 

[Tez3]

I believe that it is a connection between the Hawaiian Martial Arts and the Japanese Martial Arts. The natives in both countries use dance routines to hide their dangerous techniques. It could be date back to the ancients while deveolping fighting systems for military purposes. Furthermore Africans and Polynesians practice the war dance to prepare themselves for battle and to intimidate their enemies. Every culture shares customs in folk and war dance.

Can you find anything to prove this? I'm not sure the Japanese 'natives' are into dancing in the way many other 'natives' are. I would say every culture shares customs in war dances, I've never seen a Jewish war dance yet, we're into folk dances in England but not war dances. Scotland has it's sword dancing but not 'war' dances as such. I haven't see Welsh dancing a war dance yet. 'War' dances aren't necessarily enactments of battle movements but more for 'geeing' up warriors and threatening their opponents.

 

[Makalakumu]

Can you find anything to prove this? I'm not sure the Japanese 'natives' are into dancing in the way many other 'natives' are. I would say every culture shares customs in war dances, I've never seen a Jewish war dance yet, we're into folk dances in England but not war dances. Scotland has it's sword dancing but not 'war' dances as such. I haven't see Welsh dancing a war dance yet. 'War' dances aren't necessarily enactments of battle movements but more for 'geeing' up warriors and threatening their opponents.

As far as I know, Japanese don't use one person kata to transmit their martial arts. The arts have two person kata for the most part. Okinawan martial arts use one person kata and so do Chinese. Okinawa also has a strong tradition of folk dance where they tell stories about their culture through dance. You should see the fantastic Okinawan cultural festival we have in Honolulu. Many of the elder Okinawans on the island turn up with their traditional garb and perform a number of the dances that have been passed down from generation to generation.

 

[Tez3]

As far as I know, Japanese don't use one person kata to transmit their martial arts. The arts have two person kata for the most part. Okinawan martial arts use one person kata and so do Chinese. Okinawa also has a strong tradition of folk dance where they tell stories about their culture through dance. You should see the fantastic Okinawan cultural festival we have in Honolulu. Many of the elder Okinawans on the island turn up with their traditional garb and perform a number of the dances that have been passed down from generation to generation.

I'm not asking for proof they dance, I'm asking if there's any proof they used dance to hide their martial arts moves a la Capoiera as Black belt Jedi is stating. He was saying that natives use dance to hide their techniques, as far as I know the Japanese nor the Okinawans use dance in this way.

 

[K-man]

I'm not asking for proof they dance, I'm asking if there's any proof they used dance to hide their martial arts moves a la Capoiera as Black belt Jedi is stating. He was saying that natives use dance to hide their techniques, as far as I know the Japanese nor the Okinawans use dance in this way.

When I was in Okinawa training at the Jundokan, we had dinner with the wife of one of the senior instructors. She is a teacher of the traditional Okinawan dance. I had heard that there could have been a martial meaning concealed in the dance so I asked this lady, via an interpreter, if that was the case. She just smiled and shook her head. I think she would have told me if there was any substance to the rumour.

This probably makes sense as concealing martial moves within dance in Okinawa would not have been necessary. The Okinawan martial arts were pretty basic before the mid to late 1800s. Once the Chinese kata were introduced the techniques were there in the kata.

 

[OwlMatt]

There's a BBC documentary from the 80s about Okinawan karate that touches on the similarities between karate and Okinawan folk dance. Start at 7:57 in the first video.

 

[seasoned]

Whether hidden or not some of the dance moves do resemble kata moves.

 

[Makalakumu]

Whether hidden or not some of the dance moves do resemble kata moves.

I think it's something to think about more seriously when we think about kata. For Naha-te systems, maybe not as much. Those kata seem to have a more direct relationship to China. For Shuri and Tomari kata, the amount of Okinawan influence definitely becomes a factor in trying to understand them.

 

[dancingalone]

When I was in Okinawa training at the Jundokan, we had dinner with the wife of one of the senior instructors. She is a teacher of the traditional Okinawan dance. I had heard that there could have been a martial meaning concealed in the dance so I asked this lady, via an interpreter, if that was the case. She just smiled and shook her head. I think she would have told me if there was any substance to the rumour.

This probably makes sense as concealing martial moves within dance in Okinawa would not have been necessary. The Okinawan martial arts were pretty basic before the mid to late 1800s. Once the Chinese kata were introduced the techniques were there in the kata.

There is some speculation within matsubayashi-ryu circles about the deliberate obscuring and defanging of 'overly' violent or destructive information. Nagamine Shoshin was also a folk dance enthusiast in addition to being a karate expert and the founder of his ryu. Some wonder what role he may have played in that - certainly he was part of the wave of instructors that saw karate as a means towards self-improvement and enlightenment rather than merely a fighting system.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm not asking for proof they dance, I'm asking if there's any proof they used dance to hide their martial arts moves a la Capoiera as Black belt Jedi is stating. He was saying that natives use dance to hide their techniques, as far as I know the Japanese nor the Okinawans use dance in this way.

I came across this video on Facebook today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0frJIXmJBA&sns=fb

Are the Okinawans hiding martial arts moves in this dance? Is this dance helping them better understand a kata? Is the dance a kata?

Here is a very interesting link that contains more information on this group. They practice traditional Okinawan Ti, a source martial art for many of the Shuri kata. Apparently, they are giving seminars in the UK!

I wonder how quickly I could set up a trip to the UK?

http://sippingti.com/

 

[Jason Striker II]

Just a footnote on this: both Nagamine Shoshin and Ueshiba Morihei instructed classical Okinawan/Japanese dancers (women) in order to improve the technique of the dancers. My point is, that not only does the,hard to clarify, relationship exist - but because NOBODY really understands the interconnection of MA and classical Oriental dance, the dancers have even gone to classical MA masters for improvement!

 

[Jason Striker II]

Found this Vid of O-sensei - check out the footwork, which is said to be derived from classical Japanese dance (Noh, Kabuki, and Odori).

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTk1Mzg3MTA0.html

And here's a general article http://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/24/arts/dance-from-okinawa.html