Karate vs TKD

[Mitlov]

Aren't there usually defined rules for sparring in a given Dojo/Dojang? The goals for sparring are different in regards to SD of course but the application of techniques should be much the same.

And these two guys come from styles with different rules for competition. They're feeling each other out in technical sparring, not trying to win like it was a competition under either person's rule set.

 

[FriedRice]

I don't know if it's a stylistic thing, but when you write things like the above it feels like you have such a skewed view of the things you're discussing that the work it would take to discuss them is just too much.

So basically, your argument is that you disagree but incapable of stating why. Ever heard of the SJW's?

It certainly is a stylistic thing, and Royce Gracie proved it and forced the Martial Arts world to address all of its BS.

 

[FriedRice]

And these two guys come from styles with different rules for competition. They're feeling each other out in technical sparring, not trying to win like it was a competition under either person's rule set.

It looked very competitive but at an agreed upon power level.

When 2 different styles spar, in what looked like one of the guy's own gym....then that's def. an unwritten competition.

It's going to look real dumb if you get wrecked real bad by another guy of another style, on camera. They were both at Black Belt level, so that made it even more tasty. At least the TKD knew he was outclassed and didn't up the power level...prob. because he knew it wouldn't end well for him.

Sparring should always be a competition and it usually is. Just that you are expected to abide by the agreed upon power levels, rules, etc.

 

[drop bear]

The Urban dictionary says ammy means: "A Classy but sexy long haired beauty". I am guessing that is not what you meant.

Exactly what I meant.

 

[dowz]

I agree that the black is the TKD guy. Not sure how it would change the fighting style if it was a real fight. At 14 sec of the video, the tkd guy threw a back thrust onto an onrushing opponent.

At full power i think it would have cause some damage.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

 

[DaveB]

Where? I see nothing contradictory between my words you quoted and his post. Could you point out what you find to be contradictory?

I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.

FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.

You said that they do exist in mma already and gave examples.

Pretty straightforward contradiction there.

 

[DaveB]

I do both, but I don't see too much similarity. I guess both keep a lot of weight on the back foot.

And square shoulders.

 

[DaveB]

So basically, your argument is that you disagree but incapable of stating why. Ever heard of the SJW's?

It certainly is a stylistic thing, and Royce Gracie proved it and forced the Martial Arts world to address all of its BS.

No, I can explain why, but the explanation would be very similar to the dissertation I wrote in another thread just a few days ago. Add that to past experience with you and those like you who are convinced that they have the answers and it just feels like a waste of time.

The fact that you are throwing around the term sjw speaks volumes.

 

[Mitlov]

Ever heard of the SJW's?

Not once has a good discussion started with someone using this acronym as a pejorative.

 

[punisher73]

It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.

Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.

As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.

I disagree with your assessment. A higher guard is important no matter WHAT distance if you can punch to the head. The range they were at, it would not have been hard to close the gap and punch him in the face.

The ONLY time you will see a guard like that is in sport style sparring that emphasizes kicking and not allowing punching to the head/face. That is not a distancing issue, but a technique/tactics thing. If you allow both kicking and punching the guard will change and you reflect the possibility of attacks from any level.

 

[punisher73]

Actually what happened is that a lot of Bjj schools have incorporated wrestling and sombo into their curriculums to remain competitive and then transplanted that to MMA gyms. The stuff they're doing now is pretty far beyond the original Gracie stuff from the original UFC.

Don't buy into the Gracie propaganda. Rolls Gracie trained and incorporated a lot of wrestling and Sambo into his approach but died before really passing it onto the rest. Also, remember that the Gracie's were not the only fountain from which BJJ came. The Gracies sucked at leg locks etc. and always talked about them being "dirty" and downplaying their use. Other BJJ lineages still kept and trained them.

I am not disagreeing that the sport has evolved and that BJJ/GJJ hasn't also evolved some as well, but don't think because the Gracies didn't use it or show it that it wasn't there earlier in other BJJ lineages.

 

[FriedRice]

No, I can explain why, but the explanation would be very similar to the dissertation I wrote in another thread just a few days ago. Add that to past experience with you and those like you who are convinced that they have the answers and it just feels like a waste of time.

The fact that you are throwing around the term sjw speaks volumes.

Once again, your argument is that you disagree but have nothing to back it up with.

 

[FriedRice]

Not once has a good discussion started with someone using this acronym as a pejorative.

Oh but what @DaveB said wasn't the same as what you're complaining about? What a hypocrite you are?

 

[CB Jones]

I disagree with your assessment. A higher guard is important no matter WHAT distance if you can punch to the head. The range they were at, it would not have been hard to close the gap and punch him in the face.

The ONLY time you will see a guard like that is in sport style sparring that emphasizes kicking and not allowing punching to the head/face. That is not a distancing issue, but a technique/tactics thing. If you allow both kicking and punching the guard will change and you reflect the possibility of attacks from any level.

This guy disagrees....

 

[Martial D]

I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.

FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.

You said that they do exist in mma already and gave examples.

Pretty straightforward contradiction there.

I don't believe that 'boxing dogma' is a thing, hence the quotes. Also that isn't what the post I responded to said.

 

[Martial D]

And square shoulders.

Not any style of Mui Thai I've seen or done. They definitely keep the lead shoulder forward.

 

[DaveB]

MMA started out as a free for all and got destroyed by BJJ. Then Muay Thai was brought into the mix + BJJ to dominate year 5-15 (approx). And for the past 10+ years, it's been dominantly Boxing + Wrestling with BJJ & MT dropping down to secondary arts.

These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5 (esp. year 1) when it was potluck, bullshido, anything goes almost; where you can write down as many Black Belt degrees and fake & real fight experience as you wanted on the registration and Bruce Buffer woulda announced it.

So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory to their style?

So against my better judgement, here goes nothing.

"These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5"

Martial artists from other arts entered and they lost to bjj in those early days just like the boxer's and thai boxer's and everyone else.

Ground fighting was new and it was a long slow process of trial and error to get around it for all the fighting methods and combat sports that didn't include it. MMA is that trial and error process.

But just because because a guy wears a karate gi on his way to an mma ring, it doesn't mean he's a great representative of one of the karate fighting styles. It means in his mind he can fight, no more no less.

"So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory to their style?"

People learn to fight at taekwondo clubs based on taekwondo tournament rules.
Then they go to an mma gym and get taught a different way to fight based on mma rules.
Since they aren't fighting under tkd rules they don't use tkd methods.

Hence numerous mma fighters have traditional arts backgrounds.
And that's how come as mma gets more popular and more people like the idea of competing in it, you get more and more fighters with unconventional styles, including people who use distance for defence and keep their hands low when out of range.

 

[Martial D]

So against my better judgement, here goes nothing.

"These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5"

Martial artists from other arts entered and they lost to bjj in those early days just like the boxer's and thai boxer's and everyone else.

Ground fighting was new and it was a long slow process of trial and error to get around it for all the fighting methods and combat sports that didn't include it. MMA is that trial and error process.

But just because because a guy wears a karate gi it doesn't mean he's a great representative of one of the karate fighting styles. It means in his mind he can fight, no more no less.

"So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory to their style?"

People learn to fight at taekwondo clubs based on taekwondo tournament rules.
Then they go to an mma gym and get taught a different way to fight based on mma rules.
Since they aren't fighting under tkd rules they don't use tkd methods.

Hence numerous mma fighters have traditional arts backgrounds.
And that's how come as mma gets more popular and more people like the idea of competing in it, you get more and more fighters with unconventional styles, including people who use distance for defence and keep their hands low when out of range.

I still don't see the contradiction. Yes, boxing,Mt,bjj and wrestling contain most of the dominant techniques, but that doesn't mean there arent exceptions, nor does it mean everyone uses those techniques the same way. There is a lot of room for stylistic interpretation within the realm of effective technique.

 

[FriedRice]

So against my better judgement, here goes nothing.

Complaining already?

"These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5"

Martial artists from other arts entered and they lost to bjj in those early days just like the boxer's and thai boxer's and everyone else.

Ground fighting was new and it was a long slow process of trial and error to get around it for all the fighting methods and combat sports that didn't include it. MMA is that trial and error process.

The Gracies didn't care, they risked getting knocked out just like anyone else. This was more than a trial & error process, it was the time that dispelled much of the TMA's balogna. And it changed the world of Martial Arts. 25 years now, what a long *** "fad".

But just because because a guy wears a karate gi it doesn't mean he's a great representative of one of the karate fighting styles. It means in his mind he can fight, no more no less.

Typical excuse. So where were all these superhuman TMA fighters? They were all biding their time for the right moment right? And UFC 1-4 wasn't the "right time"....only paying $60,000 to the winner for the night....so that's about $106,000 in today's money for ONE night of fighting. These "great representatives" of TMA were what....too busy holding seminars for 15-20 people, of which at least 10 of them are their helpers, family & students = non paying? Too busy selling VHS tapes of secret techniques? Making what, $0 to $10,000 per year teaching TMA?

How much did Karate prize point fighters make in 1993, fighting in a rented Middle School gym on a Sunday? $0 + a trophy? National championship, then make that a rented High School gym on a Saturday. How much do they make today, in 2018? About the same? Oh but the UFC 1-4 was def. not worth their time right?

"So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory to their style?"

People learn to fight at taekwondo clubs based on taekwondo tournament rules.
Then they go to an mma gym and get taught a different way to fight based on mma rules.
Since they aren't fighting under tkd rules they don't use tkd methods.

There were no disqualifying rules in the early UFC's. TKD or any TMA could have done anything they wanted to win.

Hence numerous mma fighters have traditional arts backgrounds.
And that's how come as mma gets more popular and more people like the idea of competing in it, you get more and more fighters with unconventional styles, including people who use distance for defence and keep their hands low when out of range.

The UFC has a roster of 500+ fighters, name 100 fighters that fits this description. That's only 20%, surely you can name 100 if this is such a phenomenon right? How about 10%, can you name at least 50 fighters?

 

[DaveB]

I still don't see the contradiction. Yes, boxing,Mt,bjj and wrestling contain most of the dominant techniques, but that doesn't mean there arent exceptions, nor does it mean everyone uses those techniques the same way. There is a lot of room for stylistic interpretation within the realm of effective technique.

So are you saying that everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?