Karate Jutsu ?

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Anyone know much about karate jutsu?
found a local class that does this - says there base style is Shotokan
but they incorporate different elements into it?
pressure point type stuff?


thanks
andy
 

PhotonGuy

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Anyone know much about karate jutsu?
found a local class that does this - says there base style is Shotokan
but they incorporate different elements into it?
pressure point type stuff?


thanks
andy

From what I know Karate Jutsu was the only kind of karate that was practiced up until about the invention of the car. It was then that Funakoshi started teaching and he watered the techniques down a bit and added in other aspects such as philosophy and made it more into a sport and form of personal development and created Karate Do. Before that karate was based entirely on combat and fighting. So if you found a place that teaches Karate Jutsu and they base it on Shotokan, no doubt they base it on an older form of Shotokan that was practiced before Funakoshi started teaching.
 

dancingalone

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There are lots of people that add in elements of arts like jujutsu, aikido, or judo into their karate. They don't necessarily need to come from pre-JKA era Shotokan. They might even have links into the kyusho crowd if they mention pressure points as part of their promotional literature.

Just ask in person if you want to know more about what they offer. What I'm trying to get across is that karate-jutsu is a vague term that has been co-opted by more than one person, since the idea of practicing a battlefield form of karate can be appealing to many. There's really no reliable way to describe what a specific dojo means when they use the term without seeing it in person.
 

Tez3

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From what I know Karate Jutsu was the only kind of karate that was practiced up until about the invention of the car. It was then that Funakoshi started teaching and he watered the techniques down a bit and added in other aspects such as philosophy and made it more into a sport and form of personal development and created Karate Do. Before that karate was based entirely on combat and fighting. So if you found a place that teaches Karate Jutsu and they base it on Shotokan, no doubt they base it on an older form of Shotokan that was practiced before Funakoshi started teaching.
Shotokan before Funakoshi?
 

PhotonGuy

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Shotokan before Funokoshi started watering it down and teaching it more as a sport and way of life.
 

Danny T

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Shotokan before Funokoshi started watering it down and teaching it more as a sport and way of life.
Funakoshi never utilized or taught Karate as a sport. He was very much against using karate in a sport environment and forbade his student from entering competitions. It wasn't until 'after' he died that some of his students began competing. Also Funakoshi called what he taught Karate. I believe he formed the Shotokai association not Shotokan. His students were called the training facility Shotokan (the house of Shoto).
In 1949, a student of Funakoshi, Isao Obata, founded the Japanese Karate Association (Kyokai), naming Master Funakoshi as chief instructor - a honorific post. They began the sport of Shotokan not Funakoshi.
 
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Be wary of pressure point stuff... a lot of nonsense falls under that category.
yes, i may go along tomorrow night
But they do have a very senior guy, that apparently trains with them occasionally
i think hes quite a 'controversial' character
 

TimoS

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Shotokan before Funokoshi started watering it down and teaching it more as a sport and way of life.
Since Funakoshi is considered to be the founder of Shotokan, there was no Shotokan before him and, as has already been pointed out, he didn't tech it as a sport. Even the watering down is more than a bit iffy, as he probably taught more or less what he'd been taught (and the way he was taught) and that stuff probably wasn't watered down in any way.
 

PhotonGuy

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Since Funakoshi is considered to be the founder of Shotokan, there was no Shotokan before him and, as has already been pointed out, he didn't tech it as a sport. Even the watering down is more than a bit iffy, as he probably taught more or less what he'd been taught (and the way he was taught) and that stuff probably wasn't watered down in any way.

I know that Funakoshi created Shotokan, I used bad wording in my original post, what I meant is that its been changed to be more of a sport and way of life as opposed to a fighting art. You say Funakoshi didn't ever teach it like that, well since his time it has been changed in that fashion. If you find a place that teaches a more traditional form of Shotokan than they might be teaching what Funakoshi developed.
 

RhythmGJ

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I thought Funakoshi wrote "Karate-DO (emphasis mine), My Way of Life?"...

My understanding is that all "Do's" are somewhat/slightly "watered down," due to the martial/combat training prohibition in Japan during MacArthur's occupation. All "Jutsu's" (Combat) were turned into "Do's" (Art) to placate Western concerns... While there was already Karate-Do and Judo, Kenjutsu became Kendo, Iaijutsu became Iaido, Aiki-jutsu became Aikido, and so on. At least, that was the way my Iaido/Fencing instructor explained it.


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PhotonGuy

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I thought Funakoshi wrote "Karate-DO (emphasis mine), My Way of Life?"...

My understanding is that all "Do's" are somewhat/slightly "watered down," due to the martial/combat training prohibition in Japan during MacArthur's occupation. All "Jutsu's" (Combat) were turned into "Do's" (Art) to placate Western concerns... While there was already Karate-Do and Judo, Kenjutsu became Kendo, Iaijutsu became Iaido, Aiki-jutsu became Aikido, and so on. At least, that was the way my Iaido/Fencing instructor explained it.


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From what I've seen in documentaries and articles, the do's were created before WWII and placed more of an emphasis on philosophy, sport, and way of life while the jutsu's were more oriented towards combat. The Japanese word "do" translates "way" or "path" while the Japanese word "jutsu" translates as "art" or "magic." The creation of the do's did not ruin the art, it just changed it and somebody who is looking for the sort of stuff that's emphasized in a do style would be better off training in a do style if that's what they want.
 

RhythmGJ

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Correct-- In general "Do," more "art-y" or a bit softer (even though it is technically translated as "way"), and "Jutsu" more "combative" (even though translated as "art") and/or a bit harder in style...


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RhythmGJ

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^^^^As I've been taught, that is; I'm sure there are a multiplicity of opinions!


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I would like to point out that Gichin Funakoshi also wrote the book "Karate Jutsu: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi" and the Shotokan/Shotokai split didn't happen until after the death of Sensei Funakoshi.

As for the do vs jutsu... Funakoshi believed that karate had a philosophical essence that carried over into other parts of students' lives. Hence why it's karate-do - karate is a way of life. Without the philosophical essence, you only have karate-jutsu, which is just the art of fighting. Master Funakoshi made this distinction in one of this books. In other words karate-jutsu is an element of karate-do.

However I believe that a combination of McDojo's around the place (those that teach really bad or paper out ranks that aren't worth the paper it's written on) and MMA (nothing wrong with them); traditional clubs and associations are now distinguishing themselves/re-establishing themselves as arts that are effective and relevant today - just look at the likes of Iain Abernethy (there are others but his name springs up first) that is helping with this.
 
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Update.........

Well, i went along to the Karate Jitsu class last night.

when i arrived there was 2 people - one was the instructor !!
One other guy turned up a bit late, but yeah that was the class, 3 of them.
Felt like just turning around, but thought i would stick it out.

The instructor seemed like a nice enough guy, showed me the basic kata, which they then did for about 10 minutes.

Then they started doind forward rolls on mats - which i thought was a bit strange. havent done that since primary school............

then after that, the rest of the class- apart from a little bit of stretching, seemed to be sitting on a floor in pairs. locating pressure points on arms and neck, which was quite painful, especially with this big bloke i sat with.

got to say i found it all a little silly, his excuse seemed to be ' oh, we dont just go up and down the room - doing punches and kicks, etc

so yes, dont think i will be gong back.

The Wingrove association, was also in the back of my mind.

To me karate is about Kata, not sitting on the floor pinching each other.
There is one more class i have found near me, that Teaches Karate 'Wado Ryu' style, i may give that a go next week

running out of options..................
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dancingalone

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Update.........


then after that, the rest of the class- apart from a little bit of stretching, seemed to be sitting on a floor in pairs. locating pressure points on arms and neck, which was quite painful, especially with this big bloke i sat with.

...

To me karate is about Kata, not sitting on the floor pinching each other.

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If they take pressure point training seriously, practicing locating the points on a variety of partners with different sizes and body builds should be a regular part of study. It's certainly not for everyone though and honestly probably a specialized field that should only (IMO) receive high attention after other skills like learning how to move and strike to a high level has been attained first.

Good luck with your search for a school!
 
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i wasnt impressed
i have had a better workout walking up the stairs
 

dancingalone

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i wasnt impressed
i have had a better workout walking up the stairs

It's good that you have an idea of what you want. Martial arts does not always = working out, though in most schools and arts, cardio activity is a goodly component of training. Not always though.

I don't know you from Adam, but you might be more happy with a dojo that does lots of line basics and pad striking along with frequent free sparring. Those aren't difficult to find if you live in a decently populated area.
 
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