K.i.s.s.

[Manny]

K.I.S.S. (keep it simple st...) is a principle we must adhere when practicing one steps or self defense techniks inside dojang because as other old saying says (train like you fight/fight like you train) the simpler the better. We must realize that under stress fine motor skills decrease alot and our brain/body enters to a mindset of survival where fine and cordinate movements are not easy to perform.

When I am training with another senseis and they taught movements so fancy I need more than a few moments to comprehend and to perform well I simply discard the tecnike. Something we need to realize is that not all our students or mates inside the mat get the thing easily and quickly thats why we must go for the very very esay and natural to the morfe complicated over time.

I've been studying in you tube (yes I know this is not the best way) some self defense techs form aikido, karate, tkd and hkd for example and only focus in thos techs that are easy and very natural.

When practicing Kenpo Karate a few years ago I learned about 40 self defense techs and can say that many as 20 or so where a little complicated or maybe not too sound to me so I disgarded from my curriculum and only kept those that were fast and easy to perform.

Manny

 

[sfs982000]

I hear what you're saying Manny. It's one thing to practice complicated self defense techniques in a controlled environment, but it's totally different than real world self defense. I work on the self defense techniques that I'm taught and I try to pick up new techniques all the time but realistically I would probably use only a handful of techiques.

 

[wingchun100]

We are at our dumbest when we are angry or scared. Simple is better.

 

[MAist25]

YES!! This is one of the most important things to understand about self defense. In the heat of battle, fine motor skills will go right out the window. You wont remember your own name, let alone the 37 technique self defense combination you learned in class. It is very important to practice techniques that are simple to execute and require only gross motor skills. Also, it is extremely important to limit the amount of techniques in your self defense repertoire and instead find the most ways you can implement a small amount of techniques in a variety of situations. If you have a specific technique for a front choke defense, a specific technique for a bear hug defense, another technique for a wrist grab, etc. it will take longer for your brain to process the situation and remember the technique you are trained to use for that specific situation. This is going to cause hesitation, and sometimes hesitation could cause you your life. Practice and master few techniques but train to use them in as many different ways possible. In doing so, it will not matter how an attack comes at you because your muscle memory will take over and it will be easier for your brain to react to the attack and allow you to apply the technique much faster and with much less hesitation.

 

[Manny]

I hear what you're saying Manny. It's one thing to practice complicated self defense techniques in a controlled environment, but it's totally different than real world self defense. I work on the self defense techniques that I'm taught and I try to pick up new techniques all the time but realistically I would probably use only a handful of techiques.

Same as you do, I study new techs and teach them however there are some that stays with me for ever and these are second nature to me. Maybe not too much about these thechs but the ones I know and are second nature to me are woth, believe me.

Manny

 

[Manny]

YES!! This is one of the most important things to understand about self defense. In the heat of battle, fine motor skills will go right out the window. You wont remember your own name, let alone the 37 technique self defense combination you learned in class. It is very important to practice techniques that are simple to execute and require only gross motor skills. Also, it is extremely important to limit the amount of techniques in your self defense repertoire and instead find the most ways you can implement a small amount of techniques in a variety of situations. If you have a specific technique for a front choke defense, a specific technique for a bear hug defense, another technique for a wrist grab, etc. it will take longer for your brain to process the situation and remember the technique you are trained to use for that specific situation. This is going to cause hesitation, and sometimes hesitation could cause you your life. Practice and master few techniques but train to use them in as many different ways possible. In doing so, it will not matter how an attack comes at you because your muscle memory will take over and it will be easier for your brain to react to the attack and allow you to apply the technique much faster and with much less hesitation.

Absolutely right!!! when I teach for example how to break free from a wrist grab I teach two or three ways to do it and let my student to use the one he likes the most, even my students teach his/her own way and some times this techs are pretty good indeed.

When I teach how to get out of a Nelson head loco I teach: a) How to we aware of this tech to break before the baf guy can perform the hold then, b) how to break the hold in two diferent ways and that's all. I am a person who does not like to teach all the class self defense techs this can be overwhelming and in detriment of the students, I only teach thrre or four techs per class and tha's all.

Manny

 

[Rumy73]

Manny, you would like Krav Maga very much.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It is usually best to keep things simple, however some of the seemingly complicated ones can consist of a simple movement that can be a technique by itself which can then be added on to improve the position (optional extras) and can thus appear more complicated that they actually are.

 

[Dirty Dog]

While I don't disagree that keeping things simple is a good idea, I don't think it's universally true.

There are situations in which the more "complicated" techniques are quite useful. In the ER, I'm not really allowed to use simple techniques like a foot upside the head. I do, however, use pressure points, locks/manipulations of both large and small joints, and other things that would fall into your description of "complicated" techs.

If you don't train high kicks, you won't be able to use them when the opportunity presents itself. Similarly, if you don't train small joint manipulations, you're not going to be able to use them. And some of what you think is "complicated" isn't, once you practice it enough.

I have seen the statement that you're going to lose fine motor control in a stress situation countless times, and while it's true in some cases, it's not true in others. Skipping training on some techniques based on this false "rule" is unwise. Want to keep your fine motor skills during a confrontation? Practice those skills until they're as automatic, and as easy, and a straight punch.

Should you start with simple techniques? Of course. But the more complicated techniques are still useful, both as training tools and in real world applications.

 

[Rumy73]

While I don't disagree that keeping things simple is a good idea, I don't think it's universally true.

There are situations in which the more "complicated" techniques are quite useful. In the ER, I'm not really allowed to use simple techniques like a foot upside the head. I do, however, use pressure points, locks/manipulations of both large and small joints, and other things that would fall into your description of "complicated" techs.

If you don't train high kicks, you won't be able to use them when the opportunity presents itself. Similarly, if you don't train small joint manipulations, you're not going to be able to use them. And some of what you think is "complicated" isn't, once you practice it enough.

I have seen the statement that you're going to lose fine motor control in a stress situation countless times, and while it's true in some cases, it's not true in others. Skipping training on some techniques based on this false "rule" is unwise. Want to keep your fine motor skills during a confrontation? Practice those skills until they're as automatic, and as easy, and a straight punch.

Should you start with simple techniques? Of course. But the more complicated techniques are still useful, both as training tools and in real world applications.

You could not be more wrong. Respectfully, disagreeing, of course. Simple is better, because when surprised and/or under stress, the mind has difficulty performing. Simple, natural attacks and defenses are the best, because they connect with instinctual behavior. Krav maga is built upon this premise. While I can kick above head level, I would not even think of trying it in a SD situation. Some locks are pretty straightforward and can work in a SD situation, but it takes some steps to get there -- viz: surviving and recovering from the initial threat and then managing the situation. Easier said than done if someone is really trying to hurt another.

 

[drop bear]

Those moves are simple until the other guy tries to to stop you. Then it all gets complicated.

 

[jks9199]

I think it's a middle ground: Simple is better -- but that doesn't mean that the best defensive option for every situation is the simplest one possible. I'm reminded of Occam's Razor, which says that the simplest solution that satisfies all the variables or known facts is most likely the best. In other words, for a self defense situation, the simplest approach that meets the rules of the use of force in the circumstances is probably the best. Dirty Dog is in an environment where his options are seriously restrained; he can't go thumping patients, he has to control them and not inflict new injuries or harm. Walking down the street, Rumy73's options are broader (so long as he can justify them). When I deal with someone, I have to use only the force reasonably necessary to successfully control and arrest them; that could be anything from words up to shooting them.

Dirty Dog also makes a really good point about training: you can train in ways to inoculate yourself against the loss of fine motor control. Some of this is serious amounts of repetition, some of it is creating an appropriate environment to prepare yourself. Do it right, and you maintain much of that fine motor control and minimize the loss. You also learn how to ride and handle the effects of the adrenal response.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You could not be more wrong.

Sure I could, because what I said wasn't wrong at all.

Respectfully, disagreeing, of course. Simple is better, because when surprised and/or under stress, the mind has difficulty performing.

This is certainly true of some. I'll take it as a given that it is true for you. It is not true for all. Perhaps you need more training, if your mind locks up when you're surprised?
If my mind shut down simply because of surprise or stress, patients would die.

While I can kick above head level, I would not even think of trying it in a SD situation.

Neither would I. But, depending on the circumstances, I'd certainly kick to head level.
If you're not comfortable with such a technique, that's fine. But that doesn't mean it's not a useful technique. It just means you can't perform the technique under stress. Others absolutely can. Again, if you're capable of performing the technique, but only under classroom conditions, then the solution is more training, not eliminating the technique.

Some locks are pretty straightforward and can work in a SD situation, but it takes some steps to get there -- viz: surviving and recovering from the initial threat and then managing the situation. Easier said than done if someone is really trying to hurt another.

I guess all those crackheads and tweakers weren't really trying to hurt me then. Sure fooled me...

According to what you seem to think, I'm already dead, since it's (according to you...) impossible for me to have managed to perform the various pressure point or small joint manipulations I've used over the years. I assure you, I am very much alive.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Those moves are simple until the other guy tries to to stop you. Then it all gets complicated.

So the people I've put down were actually cooperating with me all along????

Sure seemed like they were doing their best not to cooperate. Huh. I guess I'm confused.

 

[K-man]

As Dirty Dog pointed out, if you train a technique until it is second nature it is likely to work well under pressure. Certain defences against weapons immediately spring to mind as potentially complicated at first glance but with training they just flow. So, 'simple' is possibly first choice but that doesn't mean you should ignore other more complex techniques.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

So the people I've put down were actually cooperating with me all along????

Sure seemed like they were doing their best not to cooperate. Huh. I guess I'm confused.

Could be. It happens.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

I must say I'm with Dirty Dog on this one. While I believe in the concept of K.I.S.S. I also believe that practice can make even the most complicated task seem routine.

If you look at professional fighters, they are able to execute complex moves, and gameplans realtime in high stress situations. True, there are limits to what can be done in a professional fight. But, the fact remains is that you have an opponent who is trained, in shape, and trying as hard as they can to prevent you from doing what you want. And yet you see arm bars, chokes, and pinpoint knock out strikes happen in these situations. And the main reason is because they train and practice until the moves just flow out of them.

If we, as martial artists, limit ourselves to the techniques we perceieve as effective, we leave ourselves open to situations where we will have no answer. When I studied Modern Arnis, the instructor had these lock flow patterns he would show us. They usually started with a strike or grab and we would go through 6-8 joint locks. I asked him why we went through these long and sometimes complicated patterns. He answered that you have to train your mind to keep moving. If you are grabbed out on the street, you will have an initial reaction. But what if your initial move doesn't work? You have to be able to adapt and flow. You will only be able to do this if you practice. The more you practice, the less likely you will experience brain freeze

You may start simple, but you might end up with something complex based on the way the situation unfolds.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As several folks have pointed out, the adrenaline response to the stress of a real-life violent and/or emergency situation can seriously degrade your skills, motor control, and ability to function rationally. There are several ways to deal with that:

1) Train your skills many thousands of time, including under stress, until you get to the point where you can execute even complex maneuvers while undergoing a full adrenaline dump. This generally requires that you be a serious, hardcore martial artist devoting a lot of time to your practice.

2) De-sensitize yourself to these kinds of emergency circumstances to the point where they no longer produce such an overwhelming adrenaline response. This is probably easiest for professionals who deal with these situations on a regular basis, although scenario training can probably help even a non-professional somewhat.

3) For those who are just casual hobbyists in the martial arts and who are not professionals in dealing with violence, follow Manny's original advice and practice a small repertoire of simple techniques that you have a chance of pulling off under stress.

 

[Rumy73]

As several folks have pointed out, the adrenaline response to the stress of a real-life violent and/or emergency situation can seriously degrade your skills, motor control, and ability to function rationally. There are several ways to deal with that:

1) Train your skills many thousands of time, including under stress, until you get to the point where you can execute even complex maneuvers while undergoing a full adrenaline dump. This generally requires that you be a serious, hardcore martial artist devoting a lot of time to your practice.

2) De-sensitize yourself to these kinds of emergency circumstances to the point where they no longer produce such an overwhelming adrenaline response. This is probably easiest for professionals who deal with these situations on a regular basis, although scenario training can probably help even a non-professional somewhat.

3) For those who are just casual hobbyists in the martial arts and who are not professionals in dealing with violence, follow Manny's original advice and practice a small repertoire of simple techniques that you have a chance of pulling off under stress.

While I agree with points 1 & 3, point 2 is a stretch. We are human and when someone is trying to hurt us, it elicits primal reactions. No one gets used to being shot at, stabbed, bashed in the face, punched in the groin, et cetera, et cetera. Of course, I am not suggesting a person is incapable of training to act cool under fire or to perform in an emergency, but simple and straightforward training works the best.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

While I agree with points 1 & 3, point 2 is a stretch. We are human and when someone is trying to hurt us, it elicits primal reactions. No one gets used to being shot at, stabbed, bashed in the face, punched in the groin, et cetera, et cetera. Of course, I am not suggesting a person is incapable of training to act cool under fire or to perform in an emergency, but simple and straightforward training works the best.

I'm basing this off what I've read and been told by professionals in dealing with violence - cops, corrections officers, etc. Some of these guys tell me that they no longer get such an adrenaline dump when dealing with violent situations and that they are capable of staying calm because they've been there so many times. Who am I to call them liars?