Jujutsu, Ju-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu, Jiujitsu

Steve

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See, now that's where I argue the point....

"Jujutsu" (and it's resultant variants) are not English words, nor Portuguese, nor anything but Japanese. The idea of it being a loanword, or transplanted term don't change the way it should be spelt. Both these concepts imply the word is borrowed from the original language (in this case Japanese), not that it becomes a part of the recieving language (English). And in that regard, it remains a Japanese word, no matter how many cultures and languages bring it into their lexicon.

As to the root languages changing the way that things are spelt, yes, that is the way it happens... when a language is formed from base, or root, languages. In English's case, that root comes from Latin (which is where "pader" comes from, and was a root language for much of European language forms), Germanic, Norse, and a few others. But none of it comes from Asian languages. What has happened is that certain Asian terms, phrases, and words have made their way into popular vocabulary. That does not make them English, though, any more than the use of "au revoir", or "ciao" make those words and phrases English, instead of French or Italian... and there the same common root language is present.

If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_loanwords_by_country_or_language_of_origin

Many... most... almost all of them are spelled differently than the root. Some are modified in minor ways, such as the removal of an accent. Others are modified in more prominent ways.

But, what I'm really suggesting is that in the context of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, jiu jitsu is no longer a Japanese word at all. It is a Portuguese word derived from a Japanese root. It refers to a specific form of grappling, just as distinct as Greco Roman, Freestyle, Catch as Catch Can or Judo.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Yorkshire lad hits it on the head in that I like the different spelling because it allows me to differentiate what it is they are doing most of the time. That can be very helpful!
icon6.gif
 

Tanaka

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In West is really the only place "JiuJitsu" and "Jujutsu" normally get used to determine whether its traditional or not.

In Japan it really determines on the type of Romaji you are using.
Keep in mind that there is more than one type of Romaji. "Jujutsu" is hepburn romanization. It's very easy for Westerners to get the pronunciation versus system like Kunrei-shiki romanization.
That's why it's best to use "Jujutsu"
But as long as you are pronouncing it correctly. Doesn't really matter.
 

Steve

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Pronounced? You mean joo jitsoo, joo jootsoo or like the brazilians, zhoo zheetsoo?
 
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Xue Sheng

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No no no… I have decided, based on my old time 柔術 AWESOMENESS… and attractiveness that ALL Romanized/Westernized spelling are WRONG, be they Japanese or Brazilian… from this point on you are not, and cannot be, training anywhere NEAR our awesome and attractive level unless you spell it 柔術…there is NO other way for anyone to even approach the old school AWESOMENESS…. And attractiveness :uhyeah:

Besides…we all know what this whole spelling issue is about…. And you really should not be all that concerned with it…. I realize as much as our AWESOMENESS…and attractiveness is something you all desire it is simply not possible for anyone to reach our AWSOME…and attractive level any longer…. No one can blame you for trying, we were AWSOME…and attractive… but it is simply not possible so give up… .Just go train whatever you are training and hope… that someday….you can achieve some modicum of our AWSOMENESS …but the attractiveness… well I would not set your sights to high. But you all really have to get over this and realize you will never ever achieve our level of AWESOMENESS…and most certainly not our attractiveness… not matter how hard you train and no matter how you spell it… even if you go with 柔術 :D :D :D


But seriously folks, my 柔術 are sooooooo far behind me I remember little of it. I was just curious as to how it was suppose to be spelled these days, I did not think it was all that important and certainly not worth arguing about… which leads me to my current thought of who feakin’ cares, now shut up and train.
 

Chris Parker

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No no no I have decided, based on my old time 柔術 AWESOMENESS and attractiveness that ALL Romanized/Westernized spelling are WRONG, be they Japanese or Brazilian from this point on you are not, and cannot be, training anywhere NEAR our awesome and attractive level unless you spell it 柔術there is NO other way for anyone to even approach the old school AWESOMENESS. And attractiveness :uhyeah:

Besideswe all know what this whole spelling issue is about. And you really should not be all that concerned with it. I realize as much as our AWESOMENESSand attractiveness is something you all desire it is simply not possible for anyone to reach our AWSOMEand attractive level any longer. No one can blame you for trying, we were AWSOMEand attractive but it is simply not possible so give up .Just go train whatever you are training and hope that someday.you can achieve some modicum of our AWSOMENESS but the attractiveness well I would not set your sights to high. But you all really have to get over this and realize you will never ever achieve our level of AWESOMENESSand most certainly not our attractiveness not matter how hard you train and no matter how you spell it even if you go with 柔術 :D :D :D


But seriously folks, my 柔術 are sooooooo far behind me I remember little of it. I was just curious as to how it was suppose to be spelled these days, I did not think it was all that important and certainly not worth arguing about which leads me to my current thought of who feakin cares, now shut up and train.

Now you're talkin' my language!

Pronounced? You mean joo jitsoo, joo jootsoo or like the brazilians, zhoo zheetsoo?

That's the thing, Steve, if we're talking about 柔術 (and I've seen BJJ guys using these kanji, or tattooed with them to indicate their art), then none of those pronuciations are correct. The issue is not with the "Jiu/Ju/Jyu/Jū" section, it's with the "jitsu" section. It's simply, and plainly, the incorrect pronunciation of the kanji 術

To hear it spoken, it's closer to "j'oo j'ts'", as the first "ju" is a long sound, and the second two "u's" are short (almost swallowed). This discrepency between the two "u" sounds is what lead to the "jitsu" sounding in the first place (the second "u" being almost not heard, and therefore being represented in early romanisation as "i"). The catch is that "i" is said as a harder sound, closer to the Brasilian "zheetsoo" sounding, and is said by stretching the mouth out to the sides, and thin, baring the teeth, whereas the "u" sound is made by pursing the mouth. Different mouth shapes, different pronunciations, different words.

術 is pronounced "jutsu", and no other way (there is no other pronuciation in Japanese for this character), and refers to a "practical art". If this character is used, then the correct pronunciation is jutsu, end of story. "Jitsu" is written with a few different characters, most commonly 実 which means "truth". Really, arguing that 術 is pronounced "jitsu" is never going to be correct (once again, the Ministry has spoken), and is the same as wanting to write something, so asking to borrow someone's pin.

When it comes to modern, non-Japanese systems using this incorrect pronunciation, well, I accept that it happens, but still maintain that it's not correct. Oh, and as for that "jujitsu" video, that looks to me one of these "modern" systems.... from a more Koryu perspective, there are some rather big signs there.
 

lklawson

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If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.
To be honest, actually, it very often was. At least during the early days of JJJ's entry to the West. Many times writers, particularly western wrestlers and detractors of JJJ, would refer to it as "Japanese Wrestling" or sometimes "that tricky Japanese wrestling."

During these early days (1901 to about 1915 or so), western wrestlers spilled a great deal of ink explaining in public debates and then in following challenge matches that JJJ was simply their style of wrestling (a fact which none disputed) and JJJ practitioners only won any matches at all because they were using "tricks." Often the implication was that these were simply techniques which, though represented in the western wrestling lexicon, were not practiced and seldom taught because they were un-manly, cheating, or did not represent any true skill.

I could write pages about the "real" reasons for this, that, and the other, but the fact is, JiuJitsu often was called "Japanese wrestling."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Grasshopper22

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It varies, in BJJ (Brazilian JiuJitsu it's spelt like that <-) however in the club that I go to it's spelt 'Ju-Jitsu' or 'Ju Jitsu', id doesn't really matter about the '-'. Most forums I read on the internet spell it 'Jiu Jitsu'.
 

jezr74

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Whats the difference (art and spelling) between Ninjutsu and Ninjitsu, is it just colloquial or completely along the same lines as Jujutus and Juijitsu as discussed below?
 

Chris Parker

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The Japanese kanji &#34899; is always pronounced "jutsu"&#8230; there really isn't any exceptions at all. With Ninjutsu, it gets more definite (if that's possible), as the incorrect spelling is almost exclusively used by the fake, fraudulent groups (the various "Koga" schools, Ashida Kim, Dan Harmon, Ron Collins etc).

It's the same kanji as in Jujutsu, and the same pronunciation.
 

jezr74

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The Japanese kanji &#34899; is always pronounced "jutsu" there really isn't any exceptions at all. With Ninjutsu, it gets more definite (if that's possible), as the incorrect spelling is almost exclusively used by the fake, fraudulent groups (the various "Koga" schools, Ashida Kim, Dan Harmon, Ron Collins etc).

It's the same kanji as in Jujutsu, and the same pronunciation.


thanks, thought as much, I've seen it used often in Blitz magazine, which I thought does them a disservice for credibility.
 

Chris Parker

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The thing to remember with magazines, whether Black Belt, Blitz, or any other, is that their purpose is to sell magazines&#8230; and, by extension, sell advertising. In other words, their purpose is not to educate&#8230; if an article is submitted, and it's believed it'll help sell, it'll go through. Additionally, fact-checking isn't really high on the priority list&#8230; and it's rare to get anyone close to an expert in any real field outside of magazine management. I've seen cover articles on highly questionable individuals, frauds, and more&#8230; one that springs immediately to mind is a "samurai swordsman" who had a range of DVDs to sell&#8230; so he took out a number of pages of ads&#8230; and got a cover story. The article itself was primarily an interview&#8230; in which he indicated just how bad his "training" actually was&#8230; commenting on how "real" swordsman would tell him his technique wasn't correct&#8230; but he could still cut through a target, so that shows them, huh! (uh, no&#8230; he was terrible)
 
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Xue Sheng

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:hmm: None of it matters...we all know it is just another attempt to be as AWESOME&#8230;. And attractive as us old school &#26580;&#34899; guys :mst:.....give it up...you can't get there from here... get over yourself and just envy our AWESOMENESS&#8230;. And attractiveness....... as you all should.... for it is impossible for anyone alive today, who was not there then to even come close to our old school &#26580;&#34899; AWESOMENESS&#8230;. And attractiveness :uhyeah:
 

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